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Donald Dunphy
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I wonder if people who write articles like this, have actually taken their beliefs to the extreme that they have eliminated the Solitaire and the Hearts games from their PC system?

Or did they forget that those "cards" exist in their household?

- Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
Solitaire
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@daffydoug
If the cards make feel you uncomfortable, don't use them. They are just cardboard and colour and remember there is even the suit of clubs/crosses in them, isn't the cross a symbol the Roman-Catholic church cherishes?

St. Pete was crucified upside down as the guys who sentenced him to be crucified did not want to do it in the same way as it was done to Jesus, they wanted to humilate St. Pete even beyond death.

Various religios traditions/churches bann/prohibit things to avoid ppl to become idle, to prevent them from having fun, etc. Certainly there are ppl who become addicted to card games but I don't think that the guy who preached in 1355 against playing cards did have that in mind.
Ed_Millis
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I look to John 3:17 - Jesus did not come to us to condemn us, but to save us." (My paraphrase.) Also, "God is not the author of confusion." (Sorry - don't know the reference to that one off the top of my head.)

Keep in mind this is the same Jesus that said things like "Get behind me, Satan!" and "You don't know what spirit you have!" He may say hard things, and I may need to ask some questions (like the disciples did after some of His parables), but He will never leave me without hope or direction. Any voice that does not lift you up and set you free from doubt and confusion is not His.

I'm sorry to hear about your former pastor. Was he just unwilling to accept that magic could be pure entertainment? Was he concerned that magic was "taking you somewhere"? Twice God has challenged my to walk away from my magic because it was consuming too much of my "life direction" (for lack of a better term) and bringing conflict into my marriage.

Cards actually had nothing to do with it. Personally, though, I would not use Tarot cards. But that's my _personal_ relationship with God, not anyone's rule.

Ed
harris
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Harris Deutsch
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I use cards and country music. Last year I was cast as a harmonica playing Stanley in Smoke on the Mountain. The wayward/prodigal son character who knows what beer smells like and likes it.

Another country song tells about the use of the deck of cards to remind one about the bible.

(aside question..Does anyone know if Judas went to kingdom heaven? It is a question I have been meaning to ask my Pastor)

Shalom
Harris
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
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music, magic and marvelous toys
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Dan Bernier
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The Bible doesn't tell us that Judas went to heaven, but it does lead us to believe Judas was remorseful for what he had done by giving back the money that he received for betraying Jesus.

Mat 26:14 Then one of the twelve, whose name was Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests
Mat 26:15 and said, "What will you give me if I deliver him over to you?" And they paid him thirty pieces of silver.
Mat 26:16 And from that moment he sought an opportunity to betray him.

Mat 26:47 While he was still speaking, Judas came, one of the twelve, and with him a great crowd with swords and clubs, from the chief priests and the elders of the people.

Mat 27:3 Then when Judas, his betrayer, saw that Jesus was condemned, he changed his mind and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders,
Mat 27:4 saying, "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood." They said, "What is that to us? See to it yourself."
Mat 27:5 And throwing down the pieces of silver into the temple, he departed, and he went and hanged himself.

*This is from the ESV

It is believed that Judas's intent was to have Jesus prove himself to the Priests, and not to have Him killed.
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
daffydoug
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Quote:
On 2008-04-09 11:56, Ed_Millis wrote:
I look to John 3:17 - Jesus did not come to us to condemn us, but to save us." (My paraphrase.) Also, "God is not the author of confusion." (Sorry - don't know the reference to that one off the top of my head.)

Keep in mind this is the same Jesus that said things like "Get behind me, Satan!" and "You don't know what spirit you have!" He may say hard things, and I may need to ask some questions (like the disciples did after some of His parables), but He will never leave me without hope or direction. Any voice that does not lift you up and set you free from doubt and confusion is not His.

I'm sorry to hear about your former pastor. Was he just unwilling to accept that magic could be pure entertainment? Was he concerned that magic was "taking you somewhere"? Twice God has challenged my to walk away from my magic because it was consuming too much of my "life direction" (for lack of a better term) and bringing conflict into my marriage.

Cards actually had nothing to do with it. Personally, though, I would not use Tarot cards. But that's my _personal_ relationship with God, not anyone's rule.

Ed


Taking me somewhere? I'm not sure what you mean..could you explain?

Posted: Apr 9, 2008 5:18pm
Quote:


On 2008-04-09 11:56, Ed_Millis wrote:
I look to John 3:17 - Jesus did not come to us to condemn us, but to save us." (My paraphrase.) Also, "God is not the author of confusion." (Sorry - don't know the reference to that one off the top of my head.)

Keep in mind this is the same Jesus that said things like "Get behind me, Satan!" and "You don't know what spirit you have!" He may say hard things, and I may need to ask some questions (like the disciples did after some of His parables), but He will never leave me without hope or direction. Any voice that does not lift you up and set you free from doubt and confusion is not His.

I'm sorry to hear about your former pastor. Was he just unwilling to accept that magic could be pure entertainment? Was he concerned that magic was "taking you somewhere"? Twice God has challenged my to walk away from my magic because it was consuming too much of my "life direction" (for lack of a better term) and bringing conflict into my marriage.

Cards actually had nothing to do with it. Personally, though, I would not use Tarot cards. But that's my _personal_ relationship with God, not anyone's rule.

Ed


Taking me somewhere? I'm not sure what you mean. could you explain?
The difficult must become easy, the easy beautiful and the beautiful magical.
Dan Bernier
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Does magic hinders you from having a authentic relationship with God the Father, and His Son, Jesus Christ? Is magic more important to you than God? Do you spend more time practicing and routining tricks than you do reading the Bible or praying? Do you stop going to church or having fellowship with other christians because all your time is taken up hanging out at the local magic shop, or spending time with other magicians? Does your Pastor (ex-pastor) believe you are spending too much time on your magic and less time walking with God?

I'm not sure if this is what Ed_Millis was trying to convey, but I thought I would add it in.
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
daffydoug
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Oh. Clear now. No. I'm not putting magic above the Lord. Pastor wasn't even concerned about that. Never even asked me. He was too concerned with all magic being of the devil.

Ir was worth more to him than keeping me in his church.
The difficult must become easy, the easy beautiful and the beautiful magical.
mormonyoyoman
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Quote:
On 2008-04-08 15:34, Payne wrote:
My dad watched Hee Haw religiously


You mean he slept through it?

*jeep!
--Grandpa Chet
#ShareGoodness #ldsconf
daffydoug
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I searched the world over and I thought I found true love.....
The difficult must become easy, the easy beautiful and the beautiful magical.
Payne
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Quote:
On 2008-04-09 22:15, mormonyoyoman wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-04-08 15:34, Payne wrote:
My dad watched Hee Haw religiously


You mean he slept through it?

*jeep!
--Grandpa Chet


No I mean he prayed that it would soon end Smile
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Ed_Millis
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Quote:
On 2008-04-09 17:18, daffydoug wrote:
Taking me somewhere? I'm not sure what you mean. could you explain?


GospelDan nailed it pretty good.

Quote:
daffydoug wrote:
Oh. Clear now. No. I'm not putting magic above the Lord. Pastor wasn't even concerned about that. Never even asked me. He was too concerned with all magic being of the devil.

Ir was worth more to him than keeping me in his church.


That's too bad. hopefully you can find someone who's more interested in people being right with God than in somply being "right", whatever that means to him.

Some people are simply unable to wrap their minds around certain things, I guess. I was like that once. (http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=221469&forum=41&start=0)

Ed
whitjm5
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Quote:
On 2008-04-09 12:44, Harris wrote:

(aside question..Does anyone know if Judas went to kingdom heaven? It is a question I have been meaning to ask my Pastor)

Shalom
Harris


Some scriptures regarding Judas:

Judas was an unbeliever. (John 6:64)

Judas was a devil. (John 6:70)

Judas was called “son of perdition”, a title only shared in all Scripture with the antichrist. (John 17:12 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3)

Judas went to “his own place”, not heaven. (Acts 1:20)



Hope that sheds some light on that. I wasn't sure either for a LONG time, because it did kinda look like he repented when he went and hung himself.
Orville Smith
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On 2008-04-07 21:33, Rickfcm wrote:
Does this mean I have to turn my cribbage board into a toothpick holder?

LOL. Good, Rick, good. Another idea occurred to me too, because the cribbage-board I use, has Hinges in its middle, so it's foldable. What I'm driving at is I could use it as a Mousetrap. Many's the time when the board's two halves banged together and trapped my finger. So now we have a toothpick holder and a mousetrap.
clarissa35f
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I think when all is said and done. All a person can do is pray. I do not remember exactly where but there is in the new testament counsel, about a brother's spirit. If he believes one day is more important than any other, or if certain foods are sinful to partake of. While for one brother his spirit may be strong enough to accept that all days are blessed unto God, and none is better than another, that brother should not vex the other, by saying so.

I think that whether playing card are instruments of evil, or neutral pieces of pasteboard with paint on them is beside the point. What needs to be ascertained is, how the brother in question feels about them, AFTER he prays on it, and studies his scripture about it prayerfully. Yes we should all give our counsel if asked. But if after all is said and done, he feels that his spirit cannot accept playing cards, then to tell him " Nothing wrong with them, " may be leading him into doing something he may feel is sinful. Just think we need to turn our brother to His Bible, and to his knees, and beseech him to use the intelligence God gave him, while he listens with his spirit for guidance. Just my thoughts on the matter.
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous>
"There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn>
Joe Marotta
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Quote:
On 2008-05-09 13:00, whitjm5 wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-04-09 12:44, Harris wrote:

(aside question..Does anyone know if Judas went to kingdom heaven? It is a question I have been meaning to ask my Pastor)

Shalom
Harris


Some scriptures regarding Judas:

Judas was an unbeliever. (John 6:64)
Judas was a devil. (John 6:70)
Judas was called “son of perdition”, a title only shared in all Scripture with the antichrist. (John 17:12 and 2 Thessalonians 2:3)
Judas went to “his own place”, not heaven. (Acts 1:20)

Hope that sheds some light on that. I wasn't sure either for a LONG time, because it did kinda look like he repented when he went and hung himself.


Well said Whitjm5. You beat me to it.
Judas Iscariot, was a follower of Jesus Christ. But that doesn't mean he was a true believer and was born again (John 3:3-7). Judas demonstrated sorrow for betraying Christ Jesus, but that doesn't mean he repented and trusted Jesus for forgiveness of his sins. He demonstrated worldly sorrow, not godly sorrow which leads to repentence.

Judas Iscariot is an example of people who sit in our churches every Sunday, appearing to be disciples of Christ Jesus, appearing to be 'Christians', and yet they are not true believers. They are the tares among the wheat, they are the bad fish among the good (dragnet parable), the wayside-hearers, the stony-ground hearers, and the thorny-ground hearers (the sower parable). The other 11 Apostles had no idea that Judas Iscariot was a false convert and traitor. He acted, spoke, walked and talked just like the other believers. But his fruit finally came forth and his true condition was visible to all.
rossmacrae
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And if Judas had not done what he did?
Theodore Lawton
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What do you mean ross? Betrayed the Lord, killed himself...?
Magic is the bacon in the breakfast of life.

............................................

God bless you and have a magical day
clarissa35f
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The New testament says that while what Judas did had to be done...woe unto him through whom it is done.

The debate of free will vs predestination is an old one that has no fast answers. People do evil deeds, God knows about them ahead of time. Does that mean that God allowed evil to happen? Does that mean that God MADE evil happen? Does this mean that the people performing evil deeds are off the hook?

Just because God knew that Judas would be the one to betray Christ does not mean that Judas had no free will choice. He chose for whatever reasons to betray Jesus. Some say he did it to force Jesus to proclaim his Kingdom, others say he did it sdo that he could prove his divinity to all. All the Bible tells us, is he did it, and asked how much he would be payed for it. he was offered 30 pieces of silver, and he agreed, and he betrayed Christ. Anything else that we say is mear speculation.

But this really belongs on it's own thread since I am sure others may have other opinions based on a better understanding of the scriptures. The main problem I see is... how is this relevant to magic?
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous>
"There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn>
DonEngland
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An interesting thread...
Salvation is about what He did.
God will judge Judas, just don't name your kid Judas.
Their are many dark things the Church has done over the years.
If you think something is wrong..don't do it.
To me, the dark ages were dark.
A deck of cards is a deck of cards.
Cast your cares on Him for He cares for you.
Choose LIFE.
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