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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Good News! » » Exposure in Christian Magic (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Donnie
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Folks,

I was exploring youtube and came across this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tvx3Fcth5kY as well as this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xzIRbEmm3E. In both of those presentations exposure is used as a gimmick to establish interest in a christian message.As magicians and christians who respect their faith and art how do you feel about this? Positive or negative please speak up on youtube as well as on this forum. Have a great evening.
Dan Bernier
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Ooh boy! Here we go...
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
Rickfcm
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I know some may say this is a minor exposure but any exposure opens that person up to criticism from the magic society. Gospel illusionist in general are criticized for performing less than quality magic. We don't need to give fellow magicians reason to pick on us. We have to pick up our game. We have to excel to be respected and things like this have to stop. People like Andre Kole and Duane Laflin prove it can be done. We must do better.
Dan Bernier
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Then perhaps contact this fellow and find out if he is aware of the damage he's doing to the magic community and christians in general. I haven't looked at the link, but I agree that exposure is exposure. But, if this fellow is a christian wouldn't it be right to give this person an opportunity to represent himself and his side of the story before we sharpen our claws and prepare to destroy him here in the FCM forum. Remember, he is our brother in Christ.

I recently discovered a couple of christian who were selling Gospel tricks they got free from other websites. One ebook was word for word exact as another Gospel magic book that someone wrote and is selling. I started a thread about this but then contacted the people first before revealing who they were or providing links to the source. I'm glad I took that course because it was a humbling experience for all three of us, and I felt so much more better for it.
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
Joe Marotta
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I think it's very improper for a Chritian magician to expose himself while performing...
Dan Bernier
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And the funniest post goes to...Joe! You crack me up brother!(lol)
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
Darkwing
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Quote:
On 2008-04-12 16:50, Joe Marotta wrote:
I think it's very improper for a Chritian magician to expose himself while performing...


Joe,

So much for a repeat gig. You probally won't get called back.

David
Joe Marotta
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Sorry ladies and gents, but I just couldn't resist...
clarissa35f
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I know this is an old Post, but I just feel I need to share something. Which may or may not be accepted but may throw some light on the situation.

Some Christian magicians realize that there are people that frequent the tutorials on youtube out of curiosity to learn how an effect is done. They then feel how better to gain an audience to the message of salvation? They feel that the delivery of the Gospel is of paramount importance. Exposing a magic effect is not as important as delivering the Lord's message.

Personally I disagree with this view. But felt like I should share it since it will help understand a few things. Some people that you approach and explain." You are exposing secrets." will not care. As far as they are concerned it's all in the Lord's Work. In their minds delivering the Gospel is worth whatever price is paid, including giving away secrets to something which to them is not important. magic.

I think this is bad practice. We are Christians but we are also magicians. While it is our duty to spread the Gospel, we need to do so honorably. Now while I never took an oath of secrecy per se'... When I bought my first ETMCM DVD from Michael Ammar, I knew I was taking an Oath to secrecy, before I learn3ed one thing from that DVD. Saying.." but you didn't REALLY take an oath." is just an unethical way of sidestepping that. When you decide to become a Magician, you know you are sworn to secrecy.

The Lord told us never to swear on anything, but to let our yes, be yes, and our no, be no. I understand this to mean we must behave with honor and integrity. If keeping the methods of magic is a secret which one can " rationalize" not keeping, because it leads to spreading the Gospel, then we are not behaving with honor or integrity. I do not believe in spreading the Gospel " by any means necessary." or that " the ends justifies the means." I think the Lord will only bless methods that are honorable and ethical. The means are as important as the ends.

A magician that would consider telling these secrets when he has agreed to keep them should not have tried learning to be a magician to begin with. if keeping secrets is hard then don't follow the road of magic. Find another way to spread the Gospel. Once you are in possession of this knowledge honor and integrity demand you keep secrecy. The Lord would not welcome unethical or dishonorable methods to spread the Gospel....in my opinion.
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous>
"There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn>
Heres Tony
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I respectfully disagree. Being a Christian and being a magician should not be put on the same level.

Being a magician is no different than being an electrician. I don't have any idea how to wire a socket. I could learn by looking it up on the internet but that doesn't mean I'm any less impressed by someone who does it for a living.

90% of the stuff I do in my show can be learned on the internet because I make almost all of my own props and I'm old school.

I teach 5th grade Sunday School and often teach the kids how to do the tricks I perform for them. Nothing like a double-lift mind you, just the things they might learn from a Happy Meal or cereal box.

Last weekend a student of mine came up to me during the lesson and said that she wished her mom would not "party" so much on Saturday night so she could bring her to church every Sunday because she enjoyed seeing and learning magic to show her friends.

If some little something I do impacts these children and brings them closer to the Lord do you think for a minute that I care about a "secret"?

Tony Brent

BTW: Joe Marotta you made my night brother!!

Tony Brent
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clarissa35f
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Well, I think it depends on whether you think it's honorable or ethical, to take an oath, and go back on it when it is convenient for a " higher " cause.

I never put my Christianity at the same level with my Magicianship. But I do take my word seriously. As does God. His Word is higher than anything else, as we are expected to do the same.

maybe to you Keeping a Magic " secret" is trivial. But when you introduce yourself as a Christian magician it is understood by other magicians that you as a person of your word, will keep it. It is understood, that any secrets you learn you will keep.

To not do so, is to behave unethically, and dishonorably. I just do not see how The Lord will bless something based on dishonesty. To God, the ends do not justify the means. The means are just as important. And if dishonorable, then I fail to see how the Lord could bless it.

Do you think the Lord would bless something based on deception? What else would you call it when you profess to be a magician that then ...learns things from others that believe by your profession that you will keep secrets to yourself, then you go and spread these secrets for a " higher" cause?

What do you think this shows unbelievers? That we cannot be trusted to keep our word? In the Bible we learn there is but one thing Highewr than God's name, and that is God's Word. He expects us to behave the same way. If you cannot keep your word to keep these secrets to yourself it may have been better if you had become an electrician.
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous>
"There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn>
Heres Tony
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Better to be an electrician who spreads the Good News than a magician who is worried about secrets.


Tony Brent
http://www.herestony.com
Outta Control Magic Comedy Dinner Show
Voted #1 Dinner Show by CW-18 and WESH-TV Channel 2
"Funniest dinner show in Orlando." - Orlando Weekly
"One of the best one-man shows I've ever seen!" - Bill Lewis, WYTZ Radio
"Let's have a grilled-cheese sandwich" means there's no meat in the house - Tony Brent
clarissa35f
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I agree 100 %. No one says a magician cannot spread the Gospel. I just fail to see how spreading the Gospel = divulging magic secrets. The problem as I see it, is..people that post on this forum, especially in the Secret Sessions expect you... yes, you personally to keep the things you read here to yourself. I know I do..

But from the above thread it seems that once you attain 50 posts and gain access, whether you keep those secret or not depends on whether or not you feel a Higher calling in divulging these secrets. Do you think this is fair to other people on this forum? That their livelihood can be jeapordized by someone that takes their secrets over which they have labored some since childhood, some most of their lives... because you personally feel that there is a nobler cause? a higher goal?

Would you not agree, that going into " Secret Sessions" when you do not value the trust that implies is a form of deception?
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous>
"There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn>
Terry Owens
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I don't think that Happy Meal tricks like the ones that Tony shares with his children are going to ruin someone's career, except for maybe Mac King...lol

Mac is a perfect example of how he works with children and teaches them simple and basic effects (even on National Television) that you can get from many sources...I know of even a pro who is going to be teaching magic at a University. Nothing wrong with either...

I commend Tony for doing what he's doing...making an atmosphere where children from all sorts of backgrounds DESIRE to come to church, because someone is making their class a good enviroment to learn in.

You don't have to worry about Tony, his career is something that many of us would aspire to, if I wasn't a pastor, I would be soooooo jealous of what Tony does...lol

No one's soul is worth going to hell over a magic trick...that's all he's saying.

BTW Tony: touching story about the little girl...
ChrisG
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If it is yours you are free to give it away. It is that simple. Just because it can be learned on the internet does not mean it is public domain. If it is not yours and you give it away it is stealing and that does not honor God.
"Consensus is the negation of Leadership"

M. Thatcher
Elliott Hodges
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I think that people's salvation should come way before the secret of a trick.
If one person is saved from an undrstandment that a gospel illusion caused then that's great.
and far better than keeping secrets.
Thomas Kwon
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I agree with Hodges.

If revealing a secret of an effect can help others bring closer to God the salvation, I'd gladly do it.


just my two cents
Ethan the emazing
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Quote:
On 2008-05-11 18:01, Thomas Kwon wrote:
I agree with Hodges.

If revealing a secret of an effect can help others bring closer to God the salvation, I'd gladly do it.


just my two cents


Then why not hand out the curved illusion. You can find them at livingwaters.com
Thomas Kwon
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Quote:
On 2008-05-11 19:01, Ethan the emazing wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-05-11 18:01, Thomas Kwon wrote:
I agree with Hodges.

If revealing a secret of an effect can help others bring closer to God the salvation, I'd gladly do it.


just my two cents


Then why not hand out the curved illusion. You can find them at livingwaters.com


sorry, I fail to comprehend.. could you please clarify?
Terry Owens
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Let me add...I've never had to expose an effect in order to lead someone to the Lord...I've seen 1,000's saved over the years...March we had over 180 saved alone.

But I don't consider what Tony does as exposure, it's more of a segment in his class of show and learn, a great tool to get children interested in attending class...I assure you, he's not giving away major secrets...

I don't think anyone is advocating this, and if you have to give the secret of a major effect away in order to lead someone to the Lord, you're not doing your job witnessing...once the Spirit of the Lord gets ahold of someone's heart, our effects are a mute point...they're more interested in coming to Jesus...
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