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clarissa35f
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I am sorry I Misunderstood Tony's point. But there are magicians out there, Christians that see nothing wrong in giving away any magic secret. if it brings someone to Christ. Unless I am also misunderstanding Hodges and Kwon.

Now if I am wrong I wish to be corrected. But a common sense reading of both those posts basically says. " No secret is worth keeping if it brings someone to Christ."

I can see that for many Magic and Christianity may be incompatible. Since the " Higher Calling" of saving souls means that any thing that can be done to attain it is perfectly fine. Including giving away secrets.

I have a few objections to this. One is.. as has been mentioned, if the secret was not devised by you, it is not yours to give away. If it is something other magicians are using in their acts, or that other magicians are selling, then you are stealing. You are taking money out of their pockets, food off their tables.

In my mind this is unethical, and dishonorable.

Secondly, when you say you are a magician at this website, other magicians share their secrets with a common sense understanding that you respect the secrecy involved. if they believed for 1 second you would be willing to give these secrets away, to win souls to Christ they would not share those secrets. To say you are a magician, but willing to just give away these secrets is a form of deception.

So we have methods which are unethical, dishonorable, and deceptive. Is this what Christ wants from us? To gather souls " By any means necessary"? No matter how deceptive? How are we witnessing about Christ then? Remember we are not only witnessing to lay people about Christ and the standard he places for us, we are also witnessing to our fellow magicians. What would they think if they saw us saying.." oh well if one soul is saved then it's perfectly fine to give away all of magic's secrets... I know they expect me to keep these secrets, but it's for a Higher calling... it's JUST a magic secret. Doesn't compare to saving souls."

Sorry, "the ends justifies the means" is a Satanic philosophy, The means are ever as important as the ends, if not then Christ cannot bless it. He would never bless unethical, deceptive, or dishonorable behavior.
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous>
"There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn>
Thomas Kwon
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Quote:
On 2008-05-12 16:30, clarissa35f wrote:
I am sorry I Misunderstood Tony's point. But there are magicians out there, Christians that see nothing wrong in giving away any magic secret. if it brings someone to Christ. Unless I am also misunderstanding Hodges and Kwon.

Now if I am wrong I wish to be corrected. But a common sense reading of both those posts basically says. " No secret is worth keeping if it brings someone to Christ."

I can see that for many Magic and Christianity may be incompatible. Since the " Higher Calling" of saving souls means that any thing that can be done to attain it is perfectly fine. Including giving away secrets.

I have a few objections to this. One is.. as has been mentioned, if the secret was not devised by you, it is not yours to give away. If it is something other magicians are using in their acts, or that other magicians are selling, then you are stealing. You are taking money out of their pockets, food off their tables.

In my mind this is unethical, and dishonorable.

Secondly, when you say you are a magician at this website, other magicians share their secrets with a common sense understanding that you respect the secrecy involved. if they believed for 1 second you would be willing to give these secrets away, to win souls to Christ they would not share those secrets. To say you are a magician, but willing to just give away these secrets is a form of deception.

So we have methods which are unethical, dishonorable, and deceptive. Is this what Christ wants from us? To gather souls " By any means necessary"? No matter how deceptive? How are we witnessing about Christ then? Remember we are not only witnessing to lay people about Christ and the standard he places for us, we are also witnessing to our fellow magicians. What would they think if they saw us saying.." oh well if one soul is saved then it's perfectly fine to give away all of magic's secrets... I know they expect me to keep these secrets, but it's for a Higher calling... it's JUST a magic secret. Doesn't compare to saving souls."

Sorry, "the ends justifies the means" is a Satanic philosophy, The means are ever as important as the ends, if not then Christ cannot bless it. He would never bless unethical, deceptive, or dishonorable behavior.


After reading your post, I certainly see the point where you come from..

I will have to think more about this to draw a conclusion..
Kevin Ridgeway
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This is an extreme example...but please think about it for a moment.

There are plenty of people in prison that need to be reached. There are also great ministries out there reaching prisoners. We ourselves have gone into minimum & maximum security prisons to spread the Word.

However... there is a right way to do it and a wrong way. The wrong way would be to go ahead and commit a crime yourself, just so you could go to prison and then try to reach people that way. I can't imagine anyone would suggest that this is a good way of reaching others for Christ. Even if you truly believe that the ends justify the means...I find it hard to believe one would think this is a great idea.

Revealing secrets that don't belong to you...revealing secrets that go against the rules of an organization you belong to are not the right ways to go about spreading the Good Word.


Kevin
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revlovejoy
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I am not sure whether this is even a realistic choice to make. Exactly under what circumstances does revealing a magic trick lead to Christ? I have different theology than some here, I don't believe I, or my preaching, has saved ANYONE. Only the Holy Spirit produces faith. The idea that our PERFORMING a trick is responsible for someone's new found faith in Christ is ludicrous, so I can't even fathom how a SECRET REVEALING would do what the Holy Spirit does. Creative witness is one thing, but let's get over our egos on this one.
clarissa35f
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Revlovejoy, I do have to agree with you. All we do is share the word. It is the Holy Spirit that draws the individual.

The way that many may feel that exposing may lead to Christ is that there is an audience seeking exposure of magic secrets. And that in appealing to this audience by exposing magic secrets we also create an audience for the Gospel.

They come for the secret, and while learning the secret, time is made to spread the good news to them. A way which now that I think about it, is also deceptive. Whether the secret the individual went there to learn is divulged or not, it is deceptive because they were exposed to Christianity under false pretenses.

I am glad that what I am saying is making some people think about this practice. Since it also carries over into other forms of ministry. It is very easy to think about the ends, and then say " well, the means are questionable, but if only one person comes to Christ, it is worth it." The question then for me is... What is it about Christ that we are witnessing with this behavior?

Many times we get caught up with " spreading the Gospel" that we forget that not only are people listening to the words we say, but also watching the things we do. The unbeliever that does not want to follow The Lord only needs a flimsy excuse to completely ignore our message. If our means do not pass muster, as Christ-like, any words coming out of our mouths will be like wasted breath. Anyway thanks for listening.
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous>
"There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn>
revlovejoy
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There is a local guy who stirred up all sorts of trouble in his congregation and left to found his own church, independent of any oversight from any council, district, anything. He put up a stand at a local carnival with a "free drawing for prizes!" He told me quite proudly that there were no prizes, that this was a way to get people's addresses and phone numbers easily.

Work of the Lord, I tell you.
Terry Owens
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What a great example Kevin shared...
Dan Bernier
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Quote:
On 2008-05-12 17:14, revlovejoy wrote:
I am not sure whether this is even a realistic choice to make. Exactly under what circumstances does revealing a magic trick lead to Christ? I have different theology than some here, I don't believe I, or my preaching, has saved ANYONE. Only the Holy Spirit produces faith. The idea that our PERFORMING a trick is responsible for someone's new found faith in Christ is ludicrous, so I can't even fathom how a SECRET REVEALING would do what the Holy Spirit does. Creative witness is one thing, but let's get over our egos on this one.


Very well said. Amen to that!
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
themagiciansapprentice
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I felt this video was simply a way of promoting the $10 dvd they are selling. Now I've seen the tricks on-line do I need to buy it?

Also what happens in a show at the home of a computer literate kid who turns round and says "that's not magic, I saw it on youtube last night." This happened to me in March at Burger King in Kuwait. I was not impressed at the barracking, but just got on with the show.
Have wand will travel! Performing children's magic in the UK for Winter 2014 and Spring 2015.
GlenD
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I think imposing rules about what is ok and what is not ok to do, with regard to accomplishing something for God, is generally not a good thing. There is room for self deception and bad judgement but on the other hand if God is truly leading and it goes against any man-made institution then so be it. But the key is "God doing the leading" and that is something that others are not always in a position to now or clearly understand if they are not the ones being led or moved by God in a given direction. I am thinking more philosophically here so don't get me wrong, I do not agree with exposing secrets of magic and I do not think it is necessary to do so. I just think we need to be careful not to lock our Christian box up so tight that there is not room to work outside it or quickly criticize what others are accomplishing just because it is new or we do not agree. Hope I make some amount of sense here.

Peace out,

GlenD
"A miracle is something that seems impossible but happens anyway" - Griffin

"Any future where you succeed, is one where you tell the truth." - Griffin (Griffin rocks!)
clarissa35f
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I Just do not believe that God would lead us into Unethical behavior. If we feel led by God to perform Magic, God knows that other magicians expect us to keep their secrets. If we tell these magicians we are magicians they will feel free to confide what they would not share if they knew we might be willing to expose what they know...if " led".

If you tell a magician on this forum that you are also a magician he will share secrets with you, expecting you to keep them secret. To not be willing to do so, is to be deceptive.

I do not think God would lead anyone to be deceptive, or to behave unethically.

I do understand that maybe being a magician may not be compatible with many Christians since they may feel that there is a " Sacred" duty to win souls, and a " man made" duty to keep secrets. And if they feel that sacrificing the latter, to gain the former is ok, then to heck with keeping secrets.

The problem in my mind is... this behavior is unethical, deceptive, and dishonorable. If you cannot keep the secrets of other magicians maybe magic isn't for you.
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous>
"There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn>
themagiciansapprentice
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I agree.

But it would have been so much easier to take it in if only the show videos were on youTube and not the reveal videos as well.

Yet it did satisfy a curiosity I've had for a while (as mail from US doesn't get here) and now I can perform the Cross Trick. If this is sucessful in bringing some-one to Christ I'm sure you'll hear about it.
Have wand will travel! Performing children's magic in the UK for Winter 2014 and Spring 2015.
clarissa35f
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That is one reason I am very careful when on Youtube. The ONLY videos I will watch are performance videos. If I am so tempted to learn how something is performed. I pay for the effect. In My mind there is a difference between watching a tutorial performed by someone that knows how to do an effect, and a straight rip of a DVD. To me posting something directly on Youtube from a DVD is theft pure and simple.

A tutorial I may or may not watch. More often than not I will not watch a tutorial on Youtube simply because I know that I will get a better education from the creator. There are things that the creator, can tell me that some kid on youtube will never know.
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous>
"There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn>
themagiciansapprentice
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Yes, I cringe every time some-one mentions the Square Circle Illusion on youTube. It is so bad!!!

I wanted to buy one, yet most searches on google or yahoo direct you to this video. I ended up building my own from Mark Wilson's book.
Have wand will travel! Performing children's magic in the UK for Winter 2014 and Spring 2015.
GlenD
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Could God ever use anyone in a seemingly deceptive way in order to accomplish His will or further His kingdom? And should a follower question or hesitate if there seems to be a conflict or any hint at dishonesty?
I can give some interesting examples, but I just wanted to throw out the idea first for thought.

GlenD
"A miracle is something that seems impossible but happens anyway" - Griffin

"Any future where you succeed, is one where you tell the truth." - Griffin (Griffin rocks!)
Dan Bernier
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Wow, very thought provoking. I want to write a long post to share my opinion on the questions you raise, but I have to go to work right now. However, I would like to throw this out there. Judas, who betrayed Jesus was known by our Lord all along. Jesus Knew about Judas, and that he would betray Him. Judas was deceptive, and can easily be said that there was at least a hint of dishonesty about him. Yet, Judas' actions furthered His kingdom by helping to accomplish God's plan for our redemption.

I would like to share my opinion. Keep in mind, this is my opinion and does not neccesarily hold as an opinion held up by christians as a whole.

Does this make it right for people like us to perform magic while presenting the Gospel? As christians first, we should be thinking, "Does what I do hinder any of my brothers and sisters in their walk/relationship with Jesus Christ? Does it cause the little ones to stumble? Is our message we're teaching biblical? Are we doing it to glorify the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ?"

I try to make my first priority presenting the message, and use the tricks as a tool. Once entertainment is brought into it, it should not be confused with what a Pastor does every Sunday morning, nor should it be used to replace it.

There are still some christians who are still against it, and may end up being against it for all their lifes. They are good and faithful servants of the Lord. I have always respected them. The myth has always been that if a christian doesn't except Gospel magic then it's because they don't understand the difference between the magic condemed in the Bible to the magic we perform. But, that's not always the case. I met one lady who used to be a wiccan. She had become a christian, denouncing her beliefs in wicca and surrending her life to Christ. She had a problem with Gospel magic not because of what the Bible says about it, but because how it reminded her of her days playing around with potions, spells, tarat cards, tea reading, etc. Gospel magic is in a way deceptive, but the motive for it is to entertain and not lead anyone astray with another gospel they had never heard before.

If I could dance, and dance quite well, I would like to think that I would be able to use my dancing to glorify God. But, I use magic tricks. People should know that what you do are tricks, and that you are just fooling with their eyes to make them think that they've seen something that didn't really happen. We don't have to expose how the tricks are done either. Once people know what we are about, and what we are not about, the ones who come to watch will be the ones who are okay with it. (At least most of the time) Smile
"If you're going to walk in the rain, don't complain about getting wet!"
themagiciansapprentice
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In the last year and a half, at Church and Children's Ministry, we've had about a dozen Gospel presentations using Gospel Magic, at our monthly family services. These have worked as well as other introductions to the message including personal testimonies, dance, powerpoint, videos, music, song and kids bits. We are always careful to use GM as a way in to presenting a Gospel Message and ensure that this gets the focus.

Occassionally, we have Gospel magic shows for the kids or visit other Congregations.

The only deception is that no secrets are not revealed.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Today, though was close. My mail comes in via official channels (so I actually get it.) The kids saw me getting a parcel from http://www.practical-magic.com before Church started... and wouldn't leave me alone. They were desperate to learn the secrets. So I didn't open it properly until I got home.
Have wand will travel! Performing children's magic in the UK for Winter 2014 and Spring 2015.
clarissa35f
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The Only deception is that No secrets are not revealed. Not sure I understand what you mean here. " No secrets are revealed" I get... " Secrets are not revealed" I get ... the double negative makes it confusing.
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous>
"There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn>
GlenD
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I noticed that double negative thing too but figured he basically meant no to revealing magic secrets. Smile
"A miracle is something that seems impossible but happens anyway" - Griffin

"Any future where you succeed, is one where you tell the truth." - Griffin (Griffin rocks!)
clarissa35f
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Interesting thread though. Magic is by it's very nature Deceptive. I never thought about it that way. So is being deceptive by performing magic something God can use?

I know I said God cannot use deception. But I think that the deception in magic is for entertainment purposes. Similar to reading a novel. Can God use a Fiction author to better express an idea? Jesus used parables as examples. Was he being deceptive if the story he told did not happen?

I think we need to separate " Deception as Entertainment" or " Deception as Education by metaphor or Simile." from " Deception for other purposes." Are there reasons to be deceptive other than as entertainment or education that God would not frown on?

Someone mentioned Judas. The Bible said about him, and his betraying The Lord that what he did had to come to pass..... but woe unto him through whom it came to pass.

I interpret that to mean that just because God can turn it around and use it to fulfill his will, does not excuse the person doing it. Sin is still Sin, even if God can find a way to use it for his purpose.

Example from History. Adolph Hitler killed 6 or 7 Million Jews, and it is estimated that counting other ethnic groups, homosexuals, insane, elderly, and congenitally ill, retarded people...etc...it may have reached 25 Million.

Because of this, there was a Nation of Israel established. We also now have laws on the books about how to handle " Crimes against Humanity." We are also MORE likely to believe these reports of such abuses than a much more innocent generation as the one from the 40's that refused to believe a Modern leader ...democratically elected, could do what he did.

God could, and did use what happened for his purpose. But...does this mean that Hitler did God's will?

Interested in the replies.
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous>
"There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn>
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