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landmark
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Quote:
On 2008-04-22 14:06, Turk wrote:

For any of you people out there who have used mnemonics to memorize a deck, do you find that the conversion (from the mnemonic peg to the actual card identities) slows you down, speeds up your knowledge or doesn't make a difference "in the heat of battle"? Does mnemonics cause a conscious "extra step" that must, by definition, take extra time to arrive at the desired information?

Mike




At a certain point that gap will not exist because you will be going directly from card to number and vice versa without the use of the mnemonics. In other words, the mnemonics drop out eventually--I don't even remember the links that I used. It's at this point that you really know your stack cold. It took me about two months to get to that point. BTW Bob Farmer's system for card pegs is by far the easiest to learn--I think Scott Cram has a version of it on his site. Highly recommended for anyone learning to memorize a stack.
Until you reach the point where there is no gap, it is a good idea to routine your effects so that gap is invisible--your thinking should not show. One strategy I used to use with ACAAN was to have the spectator write down the name of his card and the number (supposedly for verification), giving me more time to think.

Jack Shalom
The Amazing Noobini
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Quote:
On 2008-04-22 08:15, Cain wrote:
It's sort of like learning any sleight. You can practice your pass, palms and side-steal while watching a movie because you've developed the muscle memory. But it would be sort of stupid to begin training in this way.


Actually I think that maybe it's a myth that it's difficult to change a sleight you have learned a bit incorrectly. Once you can do it really smoothly after a few thousand repetitions, you can easily change the angles by doing the sleight differently for a very short while. Reprogramming. Seems to work for me at least. I don't have a mirror in my room so I always learn everything from my own viewpoint. I have never really had any problem simply adjusting afterwards.

Quote:
On 2008-04-22 14:06, Turk wrote:

For any of you people out there who have used mnemonics to memorize a deck, do you find that the conversion (from the mnemonic peg to the actual card identities) slows you down, speeds up your knowledge or doesn't make a difference "in the heat of battle"? Does mnemonics cause a conscious "extra step" that must, by definition, take extra time to arrive at the desired information?


I haven't used it to memorize a deck because I agree that it is an extra step. At least there is no point if you are learning just one stack as learning the words takes as long as learning the actual cards.

I gave up learning the HL memory system because I needed to translate all the peg words into Norwegian so as not to think via English. Took me a month to come up with good peg words in my own language as it isn't as sonic as English. In the end I had spent so much time on it that it was really digging too far into my regular life.

HOWEVER, I think you're supposed to use the mnemonics only WHILE you're learning a stack. As far as I understand it the memory system you used should fade and there should be an immediate link between card and number. I find that when calling cards out I hesitate because even though I immediately see the Queen of Diamonds in my mind, it takes up to a few seconds before I can find the words "Queen of Diamond" and speak them.

Quote:
On 2008-04-22 19:51, edh wrote:
I found that once I had memorized the stack. I shuffle the cards(flash cards) run through them face down calling out the name of the card. then shuffle again and run through the cards face up calling out the number. I do this once a day and it keeps the stack fresh in my mind.


I think that if you did it once a month it would stay equally fresh in your mind. After you have really learned it I mean. You probably know it better than you think.
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
twistedace
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WOW! Thank you all for the excellent advice. I think that I'm going to try to do what Paul did by numbering the backs of the cards. There is so much great advice here.
ns
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I have been looking at the Bill Malone sets and can't seem to find the Hand's Off Memory Test. Can someone tell me where it is?

Thanks
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Vlad_77
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It took me three days for the Aronson stack. I didn't use his pegging system though. I used an ancient practice used by Aristotle called the "Journey". I set up the cards in stack order, then created a story or journey that included the cards. To drill, I put the number in the stack on the face of the card and the card name on the back. Then I would split the deck in half and do a few riffle shuffles. Since the shuffle randomised the cards and the stack, it was a good exercise to go through the cards and have to either identify the card or the number to put them back in stack order.

This of course was AFTER I memorised my story, which really doesn't take long. As you write your story on a piece of paper, you have visual reinforcement, you recite the story as you write which is a bit of NLP, and you have muscle memory. Go through the deck a few times BEFORE marking the cards and recite the story IMMEDIATELY after you have written it.

Almost any card can be related to something you already know. For instance, the Queen of Spades (number 48) was also the title of a song from Styx. So I decided to create a story based around visiting different Nightclubs owned by the notorious Spadini brothers. The tour ended in Scotland where the bad Spadini Brothers were slit up a treat by the dreaded Curse of Scotland - number 52 - the Nine of Diamonds.

Best,
Vlad
Turk
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Thank you guys for all the new (to me) information. I am particularly indebted to Landmark (Jack Shalom), The Amazing Noobi, pnielan and Vlad_77 for their latest posted information in this regard.

What I am coming to realize is that, for me, learning a peg system after having learned the AS by brute force and rote memorization (it wasn't pretty but it was accomplished) would probably not be productive. I'm especially persuaded by other comments on other links (as provided by pnielan) that folks like Dennis Loomis suggest that the peg system was useful for learning but that after a while the peg system mnemonics kind of "fell away" and is not used in performance.

That said, I am having a lot of fun and stimulation learning many memorized deck effects and correlations. The memorized deck--What a powerful weapon to have in your performance arsenal!!

Thanks to all for all the many contribution on this thread and in the related threads. And a special thanks to Scott Cram for his encyclopedic memorized deck-related link references. Also thanks to Dennis Loomis for his memorized deck labor of love he has posted and maintained on his site.

Mike
Magic is a vanishing Art.

This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto.

Eschew obfuscation.
Dennis Loomis
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Hi Turk,
Yes, my feeling is that for many mem-deck effects, it takes way too much time if you have to think through the mnemonic associations in front of the audience. These are ONLY for initially learning the order. Then, as you continue to work with them, you simply know that the 12th card is the 5H (in Aronson) and that the AS is at position 6. Over time, you will also know a lot more things. The 9H and 9D are exactly ten cards apart at 42 and 52, the red fours surround the KH, you get to know "neighborhoods" in the deck like the cards which make up the ten cards for the Ten Card Poker Deal and the order they are in, etc.

To read more, go to my site (link below) click on the link at the top to the memorized deck area and read my article on memorized Deck Mastery.

Dennis Loomis
Itinerant Montebank
<BR>http://www.loomismagic.com
Jon_Thompson
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On a related note, does anyone else find it almost impossible to remember the "official" meanings of the cards in a tarot deck (regardless of how you use them)? I made up my own in the end!
Alan Munro
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Quote:
On 2008-04-21 10:34, Cohiba wrote:
Jon must have a photographic memory.

Put a deck in Si Stebbins order and spread it out on the table. The order will jump out at you.
ghostpianist
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For Juan Tamariz's MD, 2 weeks of painful rote. Still have to revise it every now and then in order to keep it sharp.
Jon_Thompson
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Quote:
On 2008-05-21 06:16, Alan Munro wrote:
Put a deck in Si Stebbins order and spread it out on the table. The order will jump out at you.

I always avoid ribbon spreading a Stebbins deck for that very reason. I'll quickly push it from hand to hand, taking care to push off small, random clumps, but I never leave it open to inspection.
LeConte
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I use the Tamariz stack, however this site is amazing for practice. http://www.stackview.com/index.html


Check it out if you have not done so as of yet. Use this tool everyday and you will be on the path to excellence.
Drive Carefully
leosx1
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I have to practice my Tamariz stack every day when I am on the road.
nlokers
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I run through all the modes on my Stacked Deck iPhone app daily and it has made me way sharper than before I bought it.
the dealer
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Took me not too long...maybe 5min...lol
Josh Chaikin
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It took me about two days to memorize the Tamariz stack and about an hour in total (first half in 30 minutes, second half in another 30). I'm sure I could've done it quicker, but I was doing it in between studying for an organic chemistry final back in college.

I used the peg system to memorize the cards and it really helped me learn things so much faster...the same techniques have also helped me memorize the periodic table of elements, as well as memorizing material for technical certifications.

But we all know that the only reason we'd improve our memory is to improve our magic, right? Smile
gdw
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Quote:
On 2008-04-21 11:32, Jon_Thompson wrote:
Hi Cohiba,

My memory is terrible!

It's something I want to get into, though. To overcome the memory thing, I realised I'd have to design my own. I began doing so a while back, but the project stalled due to other commitments. I got as far as defining all the hidden properties I wanted it to possess, and the handling I wanted it to be able to survive, and constructed a basic outline. Perhaps I should revisit it properly.


I'm the same, and did the same. I essentially built a stack with a lot of similar properties to Mnemonica. I am not 100% sure that I should stick with what I got, or just go with Mnemonica given the work that's already been put into routines with it.

Also, Alzheimer's runs in my family, so that was a bit of a motivator to work on my memory.
It's amazing, people will criticize you for "biting the hand that feeds you," while they're busy praising the hand that beats them.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one."

I won't forget you Robert.
iluzjonista
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Richard Osterlind stack is very good and you don't have to memorise too much- just simple mathematics.
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