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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Shuffled not Stirred » » Fast Si Stebbins Setup (4 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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SlushMan
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What is the quickest way to set up Si Stebbins from a shuffled deck in use?

I already do the set up from new deck order taught by Darwin Ortiz, but sometimes need to set up quickly from a mixed deck.
double_lift
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Well, you can try and use Lennart Green's Angle separation or any cull procedure, but from a shuffled deck, it's difficult to find a method, as you may suspect already...

However, here's something that I use sometimes with the memorized deck (I learned it from Juan Tamariz): perform an effect in which you have an excuse to deal the cards in one or several piles while trying, for instance, to find one, or several, selected cards. That way you can set up the deck in Si Stebbins or any other known (or unknown) order, just under their noses.

Hope it helps,
"There's a world of difference between the spectators not knowing how something is done and them knowing that it can't be done."
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Carducci
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A deck switch!
MueCard
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"Chinese Shuffle To Si Stebbins" in Kaufman The Secrets Of Brother John Hamman, (1989) pp. 71 -72

My idea: begin with step 5, after you have done the the set up of step 4 without performing the steps 1, 2, 3 and 4.
karbonkid
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I'd say, if you could figure out a way...you'd be a rich man.
Cohiba
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That is the weakness of a full-deck stack.

It is also one of the benefits of a memorized deck, because there are effects that you can do (such as Nikola's) that can get the deck back to memorized order. I don't think you could get away with that effect with Si Stebbins because I think the cycle would become apparent.

I'd recommend the deck switch as well, or converting to a memorized deck.
TheAmbitiousCard
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Based on the Ortiz method and Steve Youell's advice, I've decided that the Si Stebbins Stack spread be my memorized stack. The benefits are just too great for me to work on a different stack. I start with a SSS when I open a box of cards and nobody's ever caught on in the years I've been using it. There are even ways to spread the cards face-up without it looking suspicious; if you're worried about that sort of thing.

If your deck is messed up and you need to get back into SSS, perhaps the quickest method would be to dunk your deck in a pint of beer and open up a new deck, and do the Ortiz method.

...which can be found in one of his books, "Cardshark" or "At The Card Table".
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Maestro
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I believe it is found in "At the Card Table," the one Ortiz book I don't have of course Smile.
SIX
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From a shuffled pack...That would mean you need to get Bro.John Hammons , The Secrets of Bro.John Hammon book. He teaches two methods I beleive on how to get into it from a shuffled pack, whic is really really good.

SIX
Cohiba
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Quote:
On 2008-04-21 11:22, Frank Starsini wrote:
Based on the Ortiz method and Steve Youell's advice, I've decided that the Si Stebbins Stack WILL be my memorized stack. The benefits are just too great for me to work on a different stack. I start with a SSS when I open a box of cards and nobody's ever caught on in the years I've been using it. There are even ways to speread the cards face-up without it looking suspicious; if you're worried about that sort of thing.

if your deck is messed up and you need to get back into SSS, perhaps the quickest mehtod would be to dunk your deck in a pint of beer and open up a new deck and do the ortiz method.

..which can be found in one of his books, "cardshark" or "at the card table".


Frank:
I think using SSS as your MD would be very powerful. However, certain MD effects that require calling cards would be apparent if this was your stack.

Once, when performing Sly Stebbins, a child noticed the red-black cycle. (This is an effect which often requires spelling face-up - usually it flies past everyone, but this time a little kid nailed me.) There are other strong MD effects that might be effected by this fact - you can't be completely free in showing the cards.

I personally haven't used SSS too much, and it sounds like you have - so you may know better than me if the trade-offs are worth it.

PM me for some thoughts on how to have the best of both worlds.
bdekolta
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If someone sees the red/black I would just say "it looks nice that way doesn't it?" and leave it at that. So what they are red/black. It all depends on where you draw attention. There are ways to disguise the condition even when dealing face up.

Darwin's procedure is fantastic. The Brother Hamman is interesting but I'm not sure I would use it in front of an audience. Just a little too much going on for me. I agree with Frank, just start a new deck - I would use the Marlo ploy from "The Cardician" to justify a new pack. Don't recall the name offhand but he used it when handed a borrowed pack that wasn't in good condition.
Cohiba
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Saying "It looks nice that way doesn't it" is maybe about all you can do at that point, but it sure takes away from the magic when they realize the deck is in a particular order. I definitely wasn't drawing attention to the colors of the cards.

I'd be interested in hearing how to disguise the red-black condition when dealing face up. I agree that in general people won't pick up on it, since you're talking / spelling at the same time, which makes it harder to focus on the cards. But this was an instance where it did happen.
ASW
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You could use Nikola's cunning method to get into a stacked order. It's an effect in itself.
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bdekolta
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The spectator seeing red/black order doesn't say anything about the cards being in a specific order. Seriously how would a red/black order suggest any solution? Unless you are doing a color separation. You are just reframing what the person says - giving it a better meaning.

The real answer is in the opening of Erdnase. It has to do with how to satisfy the onlooker that things are fair. Once they are convinced of that you have a strong effect. If they aren't convinced things are fair it doesn't matter anyway.
Maestro
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Quote:
On 2008-04-21 17:45, bdekolta wrote:
The spectator seeing red/black order doesn't say anything about the cards being in a specific order. Seriously how would a red/black order suggest any solution? Unless you are doing a color separation. You are just reframing what the person says - giving it a better meaning.


I don't think this would really help that much, you can't really reframe the fact that the cards are in a stacked order. I mean you can try, but I think at that point some of the mystery is lost.
Carducci
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By the way, I hope my comment was not construed as a wise-crack. A deck switch is, undoubtedly, the fastest way to go from a shuffled deck to a stack (<2 seconds).

There is no way I would want to interrupt the flow of my performance to spend even thirty seconds (let alone a minute plus) sorting through the cards--especially if the impact of the next few routines hinges on the audience believing the deck is shuffled.

Creating a logical reason for opening a brand new deck would work if you wanted to use Darwin Ortiz's Si Stebbins Secret.

But I would either use what Tommy Wonder calls 'wrong foot misdirection' in this case putting the cards away as if it were the conclusion of the routine then, on an afterthought, you (ostensibly) pull the same deck back out to perform 'just one more'

Or, you could contrive a logical reason for reaching into your pockets; to remove a prediction, perhaps, or to retrieve a pen.

For stand-up shows, I have used a topit to effect a deck switch in the past based on a Pat Page move.

Of course, you could always structure your whole routine to maintain the stack during all your tricks.

Just a few thoughts.
Cohiba
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Quote:
On 2008-04-21 16:34, ASW wrote:
You could use Nikola's cunning method to get into a stacked order. It's an effect in itself.

I don't think you could get away with this with Si Stebbins. I think the cyclical nature would become apparent.


Quote:
On 2008-04-21 17:45, bdekolta wrote:
The spectator seeing red/black order doesn't say anything about the cards being in a specific order. Seriously how would a red/black order suggest any solution? Unless you are doing a color separation. You are just reframing what the person says - giving it a better meaning.

The real answer is in the opening of Erdnase. It has to do with how to satisfy the onlooker that things are fair. Once they are convinced of that you have a strong effect. If they aren't convinced things are fair it doesn't matter anyway.

I guess I disagree. Even if the red black cycle is the only thing set up, it still is an order, and takes away from the effect. The audience doesn't need to know exactly what you did - just knowing that you did something gives them the satisfaction that they need - and they think they understand how you did it.

Also, you will never find a deck in perfectly alternating red black order, even for a small portion of the deck. People intuitively know this, which is why the girl mentioned it. She realized something was amiss. At that point, I couldn't argue with her, or prove otherwise. She nailed the method - that the deck was in some sort of order.
bdekolta
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We will just have to disagree on that then. In several decades I have never had one person mention it. Which brings me back to the Erdnase reference which answers the problem perfectly. And I still say if your routining/presentation allowed them the chance to see a pattern then you need a bit more work on your routine and presentation.
ASW
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Quote:
On 2008-04-21 23:07, Cohiba wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-04-21 16:34, ASW wrote:
You could use Nikola's cunning method to get into a stacked order. It's an effect in itself.


I don't think you could get away with this with Si Stebbins. I think the cyclical nature would become apparent.


Have to be a pretty weird audience to pay attention to that. Maybe if you were doing a show for mathematicians...
Whenever I find myself gripping anything too tightly I just ask myself "How would Guy Hollingworth hold this?"

A magician on the Genii Forum

"I would respect VIPs if they respect history."

Hideo Kato
Cohiba
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Bdekolta, apparently you aren't familiar with the effect. It wasn't a flaw in how I was performing it. I was spelling, one card for each letter, just as the effect calls for.

Part of the strength of the effect is that you can do the spelling face up or face down, depending on their preference. And as I said, I agree that 9 times out of 10, they are paying attention to the spelling, not the colors. However, this one time it was noticed. I was performing for a family, and it flew past everyone except a little girl. Maybe she was too young to spell, and therefore was only focusing on the colors, something she understood. I don't exactly remember her age.

Whatever the reason, if you are dealing cards face up one at a time, or leaving a spread face-up on the table for more than a few seconds, Si Stebbins could be spotted. Are there ways around this? Yes, but only by eliminating or weakening certain effects which are strengthened by these displays.


Quote:
On 2008-04-22 02:41, ASW wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-04-21 23:07, Cohiba wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-04-21 16:34, ASW wrote:
You could use Nikola's cunning method to get into a stacked order. It's an effect in itself.

I don't think you could get away with this with Si Stebbins. I think the cyclical nature would become apparent.


Have to be a pretty weird audience to pay attention to that. Maybe if you were doing a show for mathematicians...

ASW, are you familiar with the Nikola effect? I would be very surprised if you weren't. I'm going to assume that you are. So read these out loud, and see if anything sounds fishy.

2C, 5H, 8S, JD, AC, 4H, 7S, 10D, KC, 3H, 6S, 9D, QC, 2H, 5S, 8D, JC, AH, 4S, 7D, 10C, KH, 3S, 6D

Calling just the suits makes it completely obvious. Adding the values makes it much harder to spot the cycle, but I still think the suits pop out that they're in cycle - for example, diamonds seems to stick out to me like I keep hearing it at regular intervals. By varying the speed of the call, etc., you can help disguise it. I think you'd be fine for a while, but calling out the entire deck this way is risky.

Again, it would probably fly by most people, but you get in front of the right person, and they'll call you on it.

Is there anywhere in print that advocates using this method with a cyclical stack? I'm only familiar with it being suggested with a memorized, random stack.
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