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WillBox Regular user 146 Posts |
Just a question to the stage hypnotists out there (I'm a hypnotherapist, although more towards deep 'proper' hypnosis rather than light relaxation). And before I ask, I want to just say I am all for stage hypnosis.
When I watch shows or DVDs, I see its common (and somewhat necessary) for the hypnotist to use mystique, the illusion of power etc to get the audience excited and responsive. The audience think 'Wow, look what hes doing, he has total control over them'. Posters and marketing always seem to have a version of 'worlds fastest hypnotist' or 'worlds best hypnotist' or 'holds record for most people hypnotised in shortest time' etc. As if anyone can question it! Anyway, my question is, do stage hypnotists go home feeling a bit empty once the facade is dropped, i.e. thinking 'what if people knew how simple and natural it really is'. When I see tacky stage hypnosis in Britain (and it is, more often than not, tacky) I cringe at how fake and forced the hypnotist is, as well as how eagerly and ignorantly the audience lap it up. I must say in America I have seen some good shows where the hypnotist is more open and congruent with what he does. I'd appreciate any honest comments from stage hypnotists as to how they feel about their work, or just after a show. |
Mindpro Eternal Order 10586 Posts |
I must say I have been following your posts and respect your opinions. As a full-time performing stage hypnotist the one key factor that is most frequently forgotten is that a real, true stage hypnotist is an entertainer first and a hypnotist second. That does not mean that the history, use, application and techniques of hypnosis are unimportant or less important. My pet peeve is those that try to perform hypnosis without a true understanding AND real world experience of hypnosis BEFORE even trying to begin to perform or create a performance. I do believe the majoirty of stage hypnotists today do not have the proper background, training and experience in the science of hypnoisis.
Only after that is acheived should they begin to enter into the art of hypnosis. This meaning the use of hypnosis as entertainment. This is an area that many Hypnotherapists do not truly understand, usually with good reason. An entertainer's job is to entertain. Hypnosis is the means to do that. This is often misunderstood and misinterpreted by clinical hypnotists and often perceived as using hypnosis haphazardly or inappropriately, in a disrespectful light or even misusing hypnosis. Most of these clinical hypnotists are not entertainers and therefore do not know, understand or respect the hypnotic performer and their perspectives and perceptions. That being said, the answer to your question is NO, not in the least. There is no facade. I am an entertainer that has has the proper training, education and background in hypnosis and used it to create an amazing performance that had my audience rivited, invested and thoroughly entertained for 90 minutes. They are witnessing and experiencing a natural phoenomenom. That is actually quite fulfilling. Actually I ceased my hypnotherapy practice many years ago for this simple reason - performing hypnosis was much MORE fulfilling. I feel completely fullfilled, pleased and proud following a performance. I've entertained and educated. (The hypnotist that gets involved and carried away with control issues and perspectives in my opinion is not a true professional) This feeling is hard for clinical hypnotists to understand. I guess I would it would only be compared to the satisfaction and sense of pride and accomplishment a Hypnotherapist feels after successfully helping a patient or client successfully acheive their goal, be it stop samoking, pain control, weight loss, or any other form of accomplishment. The end feeling I belive is the same for both of us. Both types of hypnotists feel a sense of pride and accomplishment in fulfilling their ultimate goals. The only difference is I usually receive great applause and often a standing ovation. The overall and after result is also something that I think many clinical hypnotists often overlook. I truly believe the true professional stage hypnotist also educates the audience in their performance to the truths and realities of hypnosis, dispelling the myths and misconceptions, while properly displaying a positve, productive light on hypnosis. This benefits the entire hypnosis community. I often feel that by the end of my performance I have had a room of several hundred or thousands of people, enlightened them to the reality of hypnosis, to a better understanding, and opened up the realm of possibility to what is truly possible through hypnosis. Once the show is over and I leave town it is the local hypnotherapist(s) that often receive the benefits from this effort and my performance, as they receive the business from the interest I've generated and exposed through my performance. I agree with you regarding some of the tacky Bristish hypnosis shows and artists. This is also becoming more popular here in the states. This is not the type of performance I offer. Mine, if I had to label it would be considered more classic or traditional hypnosis yet updated with contemporary content. I hope this answers your question and sheds a bit of light and perspective to the performing side of the business/industry. Mindpro |
WillBox Regular user 146 Posts |
Thanks a lot Mindpro, that was informative and interesting. You mention the common perceptions of hypnotherapists in your post and I want to be clear that I do not share the common view (which is why I stated that I am all for stage hypnosis). Your approach sounds like the ideal balance and certainly the better end of the spectrum, and I can see why you find it rewarding and fulfilling.
My thoughts regarding my question were aroused after reading some auto-biographies of stage hypnotists (both British). In one, the hypnotist performed many shows (and I suspect of the tackier variety) and soon became immensely depressed and disillusioned - eventually soul searching via drugs and meditation etc and ending up in a state. The second (who is very successful) became incredibly cynical, eventually collapsing into a "theres no such thing as hypnosis" tirade and certainly no longer singing its virtues or possibilities. One of the books also quotes Paul McKenna as having said about his audience during his stage show era "they're ***s, the lot of them, total ***s". To be honest, my interpretation is that where ego is involved, things fall apart. The people who rush in for the power and seeming glory, wanting to control people and appear as such, eventually can't maintain their egos and collapse. It seems to be those who are genuinely congruent, who understand the dynamics of entertainment and hypnosis and enjoy bridging the audience with the stage, who stay well-adjusted. |
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-05-01 09:19, WillBox wrote: I offer to entertain an audience, I entertain an audience. Right in the begining of the show I have a line in my "All hypnosis is self hypnosis, I don't have any power". What does that do to your question? I COMPLETLY DEMYSTIFY it for them. I have always wondered how hypnotherapists feel when a HUGE percentage of people don't stop smoking, lose weight, and so forth. Do you feel phony? With all due respect I claim to do an entertaining show, and this is debatable really as it is subjective, but I offer no hard CURES. So I ask you the exact same question. When you fail to cure someone do you refund the money, or charge them more till they are cured?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
WillBox Regular user 146 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-05-01 11:14, Dannydoyle wrote: Its not really the exact same question is it? Dannydoyle, you seem to have read my question as "all stage hypnotists are phoney" which isn't what I asked at all. For the second time, I repeat what I wrote to begin with "I am all FOR stage hypnosis". Just because I mention hypnotherapy, it doesn't mean I am inviting some sort of conflict because I'm really not. Your opening line at your show doesn't do anything to my question, but it does offer an answer so thankyou. I respect your approach, as I mentioned I believe a balanced approach where a person delivers hypnosis rather than somehow pretending to embody hypnosis is GREAT. I hope you agree that it isn't always the case though. To answer your question, I charge them more until they are cured. |
mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
Im not sure what you mean about "deep proper" hypnosis. As a Hypnotherapist you should be a therapist first and a hypnotist secondly. You should be focused on assisting your client solve a problem. The solutions of problems are not dependant upon depth of trance. And to claim you do "proper deep hypnosis" sounds a bit fake to and gimmicky to me.
I have to honestly say that most hypnosis shows Ive seen display a far deeper state of hypnosis than found in a therapy type situation. When I did hypnosis shows I sometimes went home after collecting a couple of grand thinking this was really easy. But then few other hypnotists were collecting that kind of money so I guess it wasn't that easy. However the same applied to therapy when I had a practice. Whenever I failed to get a good outcome for my client I would feel empty. Now its the same if I don't get the outcome I want for my business clients. Your question applies to anything. However the embedded presupposition is that stage hypnosis is fake and forced and the audience go along because they are ignorant. And I think that is really not the case. And that you may even be a little envious. |
WillBox Regular user 146 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-05-01 11:58, mindpunisher wrote: MP I realised I'd probably be hopelessly misunderstood at the time of writing, but still thought it was worth asking. I have already mentioned, three times now, that I am ALL FOR stage hypnosis, so why would you ignore that and go along with your own naff faux-NLP presupposition of what you think I am implying? Your irrational defensiveness, I have to say, is suspicious. Fake and gimmicky? What I meant is this: I get tired of hearing stories of people who have rushed through hypnotherapy training to have their tacky book of 'scripts' which they then read in a 'soft voice' to their paying clients, hoping that somewhere in their generic mish-mash something works. I mentioned 'proper hypnosis' to mean that: hypnosis, rather than mere relaxation. A state of increased suggestibility where the subconscious can be re-educated. I trained with Gil Boyne and am foremost a therapist - I work with deep emotional conflicts and my clients frequently liberate emotional blockages which they've been hanging on to for decades. I've seen clients overcome crohns disease, M.E, skins disorders as well as of course habits and addictions. So please don't patronise me with your flippant assumptions, however powerful or superior you allow yourself to feel with them. My question does not 'apply to everything'. It applies to a curiosity of how stage hypnotists feel, whether there is any conflict, or not. I think its a fair and reasonable question, and if you weren't clinging to such a defensive attitude you might relax a little and realise that. |
Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Will often, well FAR TOO OFTEN I think hypnotists do themselvs a disservice by attempting to look all powerfull yes.
But the words you choose to use to formulate your question are really interesting. The answer to my question is even MORE interesting. If anyone should feel empty or phony it is probably the charge them till they are cured crowd. You are indeed inviting conflict, even if this is not your desire. I think you should examine more the things you do than wonder about the things others do. I claim to entertain. That is all. Far easier bar than claiming to cure. Oh and have you seen the hypnotherapists who want to claim to cure cancer, genetal enlargement and so forth? How would you feel if I lumped you in with them? (unless you are I guess) That is how I feel when you lump ALL stage hypnotists together. Not fun huh?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
>>>>>I mentioned 'proper hypnosis' to mean that: hypnosis, rather than mere relaxation. <<<<<<<<
the fact that your suspiscious doesn't mean I am being defensive. It means you don't understand what I am pointing out. That your belief that you do "proper" hypnosis flawed due to your limited knowledge on the subject. A state of hieghtened suggestability is very very limited when its the only technique used in therapy. I ran a therapy practice for many years. I offered money back guarantees on all my sessions. I ran a very successful stage hypnosis business for 10 years. Now I apply hypnosis in a completely different context and getting succes in this area. I will repeat your false sense of importance is only exceded by your limited knowledge of the subject. Ive been involved professionally with hypnosis for more than 20 years. I personally don't rate Gil Boyne as a therapist. And those inductions are very dodgy. The worst one was when he had a female end up with her head in his lap like she was giving him oral sex. Very dodgy and niave. And totally unnecessary. Kind of tacky really. |
WillBox Regular user 146 Posts |
Dannydoyle, I fail to see how I lumped all stage hypnotists together. Were that true, the first response from Mindpro wouldn't have been possible, would it? And that is the kind of information I was after. Yet, already in the last few responses hypnotherapists have been lumped together again and again. What is this, some sort of hypocritical playground?
I thought (sigh) that I'd end up having to explain why I charge until the solution is found. I don't claim to cure people - I help them utilise their own resources, resolve emotional conflicts and re-educate their false fixed-ideas. I do this through training, hypnotic training and all sorts of therapeutic interventions. As with stage hypnosis, I don't claim to have the power, I merely provide a service that people take advantage of to get where they want to go. Sometimes a single session is needed, sometimes four. I'm happy with my approach, it works for me (and my clients). In response to you thinking I should examine more the things I do that wonder about the things others do, I certainly do. I'm always examining the things I do, my ideas, approaches and thinking about such things. I don't understand why you thought I wouldn't? But surely its ok to wonder about others too? And isn't a forum on such a topic an ok place to ask that? In hindsight, I realise that my subject 'do stage hypnotists feel phoney' was careless as people have obviously created a defensive impression in their mind before reading the posts. I apologise for that, I wasnt lumping anyone together, accusing of anything, or implying anything. I was just curious, and I have explained my reasons in my second post (which seems to have been overlooked in favour of typical ranting and raving). Yes I have seen hypnotherapists who want to claim cancer etc. I wouldn't feel anything if you lumped me in with them, in some ways I'd expect you to, fortunately it doesn't bother me either way. I think offering false hope is the worst sin a therapist could offer - where I have helped people overcome pathological symptoms its been experimentally (i.e. part of other issues which I do feel confident I can assist with). Look, my intention wasn't to create some childish competition between two industries, its a futile and irrelevant debate. |
WillBox Regular user 146 Posts |
MP thanks for your comments, I don't have the motivation to argue against your inaccurate and biased perceptions. Many of your posts are negative and you seem keen to filter everything to suit your negative view of everything.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Now were getting somewhere. IT IS INDEED futile and useless as a debate. This was my point.
Also I happen to think the WORST example of both worlds are the guys who learn a stage induction and hang out a shingle. They do bad stage work, and bad clinical work and make enough money to get by in life. They are the bad ones. Offering false hope as cures, false hope as entertainers. The absolute worst of both worlds. Now there are those who can do both and do them well. I can think of several and I am certain there are LOTS more than only those I know of. The simple wordinig of your title really is inflamitory, I am glad you at least know that. Now we can chat about it as you have corected it.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
Anthony Jacquin Inner circle UK 2220 Posts |
Good question Will.
I am no less fascinated with hypnosis than when I got involved with it 12 years ago. On stage I sidestep the power/mystery cloak for my presentation. I present it as I find it. That doesn't make it any less amazing. In my view it makes it much more real and closer to being in the grasp of the audience. I want them to feel like if they just knew a bit more about the mind they too could possibly do this. I feel great when I come off stage and certainly do not feel because something is simple that it is any less incredible or even beautiful. I get the same reward from therapy. Anthony
Anthony Jacquin
Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis Updated for 2016 Now on Kindle and Audible! |
mindpunisher Inner circle 6132 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-05-01 12:40, WillBox wrote: Actually if you reread my posts they reflect YOUR thinking just applied to what you say. that's why you don't have any "motivation". Again the statement you made above is a pretty accurate description of YOUR posts on this thread. I would say that your posts on this thread were very negative and your perceptions were pretty biased and inaccurate. |
WillBox Regular user 146 Posts |
Mindpunisher, really, is it productive or useful in anyway whatsoever to nitpick to the extent that you do? You're like one of those grumps in the corner of a bar who sneers at whoever walks in.
Yes, you are right, I could have asked 'does stage hypnosis make you feel more fulfilled'. And yes, I deserve to be shot down in flames by your all-consuming ego for making the wrong decision. What is with you? If you are so experienced, multi-skilled, earning so much, god-like, expert on everything, why do you feel the need to regularly nitpick on forums and blast people wherever possible? Its pathetic! You sound exactly like the cynical, bitter, deluded, power-hungry, egotistical hypnotists whose biographies I referred to in my second post. Really, being so pedantic (to the point of blasting Gil Boyne on an infantile remark?) on a FORUM where language is hardly complex enough to convery all the subtleties, nuances and caveats of hypnosis in a few lines, its the worst kind of weak, bullyish behaviour. LOL, mindPUNISHER, your name says it all. |
WillBox Regular user 146 Posts |
Thanks Anthony, good post and useful. "I want them to feel like if they just knew a bit more about the mind they too could possibly do this." Great approach - and I'm sure would leave the audience with far more than entertainment, also feeling inspired and curious for more.
Dannydoyle, "the guys who learn a stage induction and hang out a shingle. They do bad stage work, and bad clinical work and make enough money to get by in life" - I guess these are the people who would eventually (I hope) catch up with themselves and feel phoney. In the hypnotherapy industry, ads in the yellow pages change each year as newcomers start, s**t hits the fan, change careers. It paints a bad picture for those who then spread negative word-of-mouth about bad sessions with 'scripts'. Thanks for your comments. |
HypnoScriptoHottie New user USA 33 Posts |
Ugh. Here we go again - a rediculous battle of semantics and egos and overanalyzing looking for offense instead of just answering the question.
In my experience of watching tons of shows by tons of different performers over 20 years - both live (all in America) and on video - I have seen a bit of evolution in the 'presentation' of the 'mystique' or lack-thereof. In years past, it seemed more common to put on a "mystical" show, playing up the "magical properties" of both the hypnotist and hypnosis itself. The hypnotist was there to "wow and astound" the audience with their "amazing powers." That was the EXPECTED presentation style of the times. Today, most hypnotists I've seen, from mid-west comedy clubs to the Strip in Vegas, are less "mystical" - they are there simply to "entertain" - and most point out right away that they have NO magical powers, that all hypnosis is self-hypnosis, and they they will simply help guide you to use the creative part of the mind to relax and have fun. SO - on that issue (as on many others) it really just comes down to the individual Stage Persona of the individual hypnotist - what kind of SHOW they personally choose to put on - which may even change from venue to venue. And, as for the hypnostist's feelings about a show or what he/she does in general... Most that I know personally have years and years of experience on stage, and many have had (or still do have) clinical practices, too. They KNOW HOW AND WHY it works, but yet, they are often still AMAZED at the responses their subjects give. They are not necessarily amazed that it WORKED (although sometimes this is the case in certain situations), but at the variation of response from person to person and show to show. But again, this kind of reaction all depends on the individual hypnotist. What is their confidence level? What is their educational level? Are they only performing for the ego trip? Do they just want the money and don't really care about the details? Do they simply love their job - performing, demonstrating hypnotic phenomena, entertaining? Everyone has different goals, personality, and background, and this simple fact will lead to each hypnotist you ask providing a different answer to your questions. As for clinical practice, again, it's all down to the individual hypnotherapist. What innate helping skills do they possess? Have they taken the time to perform an indepth assessment of the individual client, and to devise a 'scripted session' just for them, based on their specific needs? Or do they just use/read the same 'script' for every client who comes in for smoking, and hope it works for most, most of the time? All of these questions come down to the character and pesonality and ultimate goals of the individual hypnotist. As for the use of the word "PROPER" in the original post - which it appears fascinating misinterpretation of the contextual definition has caused great offense to be taken by many... I don't really think he meant "proper" as in "truly correct" or "better than" - it wasn't a slam - at least I didn't read it that way - but only a term of disinction over different approaches and proceedures between the two industries. It's simply a personal dialect/word choice - of the individual hypnotist, from their own experience and culture - and not something to take offense to just because you feel like being offended today, rather than exploring the true intended meaning behind the questions asked. But again, that's individualism in play. Some people just naturally want to help enlighten, explain and expand for the benefit of others, and some just seem to have nothing better to do with thier time than to argue, and search out or even create opportunities to b***ch and moan and complain and insult others, for whatever personal agenda they have. And on another subject - just a quick general "nit-pick" because here is as good as anywhere to post it -- Sorry, but this little error (seen again and again here recently) just drives me nuts, so I thought I'd share a little educational tip: The contraction of the words "YOU ARE" is "YOU'RE" - not "YOUR" - which is a posessive thing... EXAMPLE: >> YOU ARE (YOU'RE) going to the store to buy stuff for YOUR house. I understand (and even forgive) poor spelling and typing - but that's different from the frequent misuse of a common word. ~ Paula |
Nongard1 Special user 664 Posts |
God you guys are deep. Here is my answer (it's amazing that once again I agree with MP, and certainly with Paula and Danny).
I am both a clinical (degreed, licensed mental health professional) and a stage performer. there is no "proper" way for one to expereince hypnosis. All hypnosis is self-hypnosis, I am just the guide, either on stage or in the office. However one decides they want to exprience the process I guide then through is just fine with me. I think your first post indicates some serious misconceptions about hypnosis. Like Paula said, most stage hypnotists, including me say in the pre-talk that they have no magical powers and that all hypnosis is self-hypnosis. Anthony Cools even adds that he is "P***ed off that he has no magical or mystical powers!" A rather funny way of ephasizing the point. Do I feel phoney after a show? No becasue the hypnotic process is real, many times the same induction I would use in my office. If the audience laughed, the subjects had fun and I got paid, it then was EXACTLY as it was supposed to be.... nothing phoney about that....
Dr. Richard Nongard, Professional Hypnosis Training
Learn how to master the art of SpeedTrance, Clinical and Stage Hypnosis |
WillBox Regular user 146 Posts |
HypnoScriptoHottie, thanks for your comments, it was just what I was looking for.
Richard, again, remember that language (especially as used in a forum) is barely a surface structure of something far deeper and complex. Its difficult to paint a perfectly accurate picture of what I mean. Heck, I've read volumes on hypnosis where I felt the author was slightly out of touch. I can see how my use of the word 'proper' (jeez) has been misinterpreted. I didn't mean to distinguish between 'real' or 'pretend' hypnosis. If you'll allow me to, I'll just clarify this. Generally speaking (and again, this is full of generalisations, distortions, deletions etc, and I am talking about the UK) hypnotherapists are more therapists than hypnotists. They see an ad to 'earn loads' and go through a week or so of training then set up with tacky flyers showing spirals or dolphins jumping over rainbows. They learn hypnosis enough to read a script, talk in a certain way, and give suggestions for sleepiness, relaxation etc. Even with 100 people they often lack the skills or confidence to ellicit deep trance phenonmena (increased suggestibility, whatever you want to call it). I believe that for certain therapeutic tools such as age regression, or for short term suggestions to take hold (e.g. pain relief), a heightened level of responsiveness is called for (rather than just reading a script). To be honest (and if you think this is a misconception then I am happy with that) I distinguish firmly between mere relaxation and hypnosis. Here's another spin-off to elaborate. When I have been to hypnotherapy training events, hypnotherapists have frequently blasted stage-hypnosis, saying its immoral, dangerous etc. I then get into heated arguments, and realise what they are really saying is "I'm not confident enough to truly hypnotise someone" and the aggression is down to envy. Btw I always gently remind them that without stage hypnosis the public would have no idea about hypnosis, and a majority of their indirect marketing would disappear. Also, whilst you both mention that most stage hypnotists include in the pre-talk about having no magical powers etc, this is really what I was getting at. You're obviously professional enough to have that balance, but I suspect those that don't (as we've already discussed) lead to meltdown. It just surprised me to see the pattern emerge so often, and I wondered if anyone could relate to it (e.g. perhaps someone was carrying a burden of incongruency, then changed their style or approach and found a new energy or passion for what they did). Thanks |
Anthony Jacquin Inner circle UK 2220 Posts |
I interpreted 'proper' as being an experience of hypnosis both you and your client could verify e.g using hypnotic phenomena - rather than 'relaxotherapy'.
Anthony
Anthony Jacquin
Reality is Plastic! The Art of Impromptu Hypnosis Updated for 2016 Now on Kindle and Audible! |
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