Good.

Just because your self belief makes you feel you are worth less than the coffee and cookies served after the show, doesn't mean you should limit the ambitions of others.

I'm frankly sick of the people who just because THEY can't (or don't believe they can) get 2-3 K for a 30 minute show, don't believe Anyone can consistently get that amount and harp on about the people who can.

bb

I believe if you're focused exclusively on making more money doing what you do, you will make more money. I also believe if you're focused exclusively on making more money, you will miss out on the finer things of life, which have nothing whatsoever to do with money.

In your service and in HER service,

Todsky the Wonder Money Motivational Magic Coach!

…interesting.

How is that “Magician’s Helping Magician’s”?

Sad.

Which post are you referring to?

Deano,
I'm also curious, but I'm not asking because I want to argue. I think I just appreciate people being really honest on this board so the help is sincere and "down to earth". I get frustrated when people hype to other entertainers. It's a necessary evil in marketing that I have a healthy respect for, but it's not necessary in the company of peers..my humble opinion only.
Best,
Chris

Don't forget, Dean, in Todsky's signature, "...in HER service..." he might have been referring to The Queen. After all, he is a Canadian. Also, he might be one of her secret agents.

Todsky, pursuing a healthy income doesn't have to come at the expense of other great things in life. It doesn't have to be "either or". It can be "and". You can have your cake and eat it, too.

- Donald

P.S. Again, I don't claim that I personally earn that type of money from a single appearance. I choose to work different markets, ask for what I believe I am worth, I haven't worked up to the next level in fee yet, have limiting beliefs and actions, etc. However, I do know of people who get this type of money for a single show. (Also, it isn't too likely that they hang out on the Café on a regular basis.)

P.P.S. I think that Jim Snack talks about different levels of pricing / growth in his Success-In-Magic course.

Magicians never commend this rate, but big speakers are often paid 100K to speak for an hour. Medium sized speakers easily commend thousands of dollars per hour, and musicians commend far more than that.

What makes magicians make so much less? Supply vs. Demand? Us cheating ourselves and pricing ourselves too low across the board? Limited market?

For performers thousands of dollars per hour should be a fairly easy rate to receive, but magicians rarely are capable of it. I better start working...

Dean look at it another way for just a second. What is the upside of always looking at the best possible scenario? What value does it have looking always to the upside, to the point where it is a fantasy and not life as we know it?

I am not taking a position on whether or not anyone gets anything, I am saying that when all people do is look at what "could be" they often miss what IS. THAT is just as bad if not worse.

Then let me ask what upside is there to flat out misrepresentation on the internet about things? Then others rely on this less than valuable information, and who does this help?

How about being grounded in reality, and not slogans and BS?

See here is the thing Danny, (And you know I like an respect you…)

I have found (so it is NOT 'guesswork') based on years of evidence and results that those who DO in fact “believe, get, understand even think it is possible” always get more and better results that all those who ‘believe, get, understand even think that it's NOT’!

Proven fact.

Think about it for a second:
WHY would anybody really ‘extend themselves’, ‘truly go for’, or put themselves ‘out there’, take massive action if they KNOW that they will fail??? (Whether it’s true or not, by the way!)

What is so hard to understand? If you want to talk about a 'fantasy land', now we have something to talk about brother. Denial is the most destructive form of fantasy land.

Does EVERYONE become a “massive and amazing success” JUST because they 'believe' they can?

NOPE! - - BUT “when you DO, in fact believe” AND take the ‘believable action required’, it is PROVEN to HELP in the over-all success getting process!

So yeah, the question stands:
“WHY would anyone want to stunt their success potential when all you have to do is change you mind and take the requisite action!?!?”

As I said... (over and over again) each are 110% (Hehehehe) welcome YOUR-OWN belief and results accordingly. Likely, (as evidenced here) you will not 'believe me' either, and that is fine. - - It is unfortunate from my perspective as one who CARES about your success, but it still is ok I guess, because "It Is A Mindset Thing" in large part and it’s NOT my job to change your mind.

How is that there is soooooo much opposition to becoming more successful?? It’s life… SW, SW, SW…N!

I am taking a break now…

I am at your service and In HIS Service,
Deano (CARES! Like, Believe, Attack It Or Not!) In Reno
><>

PS
It is "life as YOU know it... not as 'WE' know it."

And isn't that the point …onward.

Dean your right. I will say it again your right.

BUT the positive mindset, does NOT explain not living in reality now does it?

I am not a negative person at all. I am a very realistic one though. So not living in reality in EITHER case is harmfull is my point.

Also when guys live above the rim, and are constantly talking obvious nonsense, who does this help? Who is helped by the exagerations Nicholas pointed out? People rely on information they read and then are harmed by it.

I am not saying any level of success is not possible through hard work and dedication. I am not saying don't look for ways to do it, or to be negative. BUT also to be constantly positive, when the situation does not call for it, DOES HARM THE CAUSE. It can make you put money in places it absolutly does NOT belong and will not help.

I guess I am getting more at how about we hang out in reality, with positive message for sure, but reality in the end?

I know your post was to Dean, but I have a question.

I don't get what you are trying to say, Danny. I'm hoping you can clarify.

Are you implying that just because I know of people who are well paid (rewarded) for their shows, I'm not grounded in reality for being aware of that fact?

And others who know of people who are well paid (or who do it themselves) for their shows, are not grounded in reality?

I think it is great knowing that some performers do this. It makes me strive to become more and grow. It makes me want to seek out mentors. It makes me examine myself and my business.

You can be content where you are, and also strive for more. They don't have to be exclusive of one another.

Remember, all that was asked at the beginning of this thread was basically, "Is it possible for some performers to get that kind of money?" or "Is it possible that some customers pay that kind of money?"

Did you read a different question?

No one ever said it was the majority of performers, or the majority of customers.

- Donald

The answer is 'yes' if you are talking about corporate clients. And no, I'm not posing and I am not living in LA-LA land. It can be done. Find a market and start working it.

Donald you really have to strive to miss my point.

But here goes. Have I said ANYONE on this thread does this? Well no actually I said I am speaking of nobody in particular.

I am saying that not living in reality, posing on the internet and just talking nonsense, does more to harm everyone, than to help them. Pretty clear really.

I NEVER said anyone who knows people who make large amounts of money or makes it themselvs, or anything, is not in reality did I?

Are you telling me every claim you have read on this board has been 100% true? And if that answer is no, then who are they helping? Get the point?

I am saying that more and more the posts drift to fantasy land.

Just to chime in as the original poster, my question was prompted by Mr. Charach saying he typically works two or three shows a day during the Christmas season for $2,500 per 30 minutes strolling or 60 minutes stage. In fact he says he typically grosses about $200,000 for the month of December alone.

I don't doubt he has made $2,500 for a show. In fact, I could believe has has grossed $200K in a single month - but to say that is his typical income seemed to me extravegant. If he makes half of that in a normal month, for example, that would mean he grosses about $1.3 million per year - TYPICALLY.

With TV specials, land development deals, mechandise sales, and over 400 sold out theater shows around the world at ticket prices around $40-$100 per seat, David Copperfield earns about $50-$60 million in a good year. I believe he out earns most if not all other magic stage acts.

Granted, there is a large gap between $1.3 million and $50 million, but there seems to be a bigger gap between arguably the world's most famous magician with the most state of the art illusion show selling out large auditoriums and a relatively unknown magician (at least outside of the magic community) working corporate events out of a small office.

To put things in perspective, what would be a good guess as to Mac King's income from having a popular show in his own showroom in Vegas? I'm sure it isn't $50 or $60 million and I would be surprised if it were even over $1 or $2 million. Though I really don't know what he makes.

So, what is the problem with goal setting and positive thinking when thinking of my show? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! I love to think positively about all aspects of my magic and life in general. I think there is very high value in setting high goals and working faithfully to achieve them. After all, if you shoot for the moon you may just get close, but if you shoot for the stars, you'll most likely pass the moon on the way.

However, if I were going to someone for a business loan and presented them with a business plan, I'm sure my chances of getting that loan would be far better if the bussiness plan was "realistic" in terms of what I earn here and now and not what I want to earn in my goals. And that is where the optimistic thinking starts to be a negative. If we are truly going to be Magicians Helping Magicians there is definitely a place for encouraging and positive input. However, when I go to my wife and kids and say I want to pursue this business of magic, it carries no practical weight to say with hard work and a good show our income will increase to $1.3 million. Yes, it can be done, but it would be irresponsible to tell my wife, my kids, and my business associates that that is what they should expect in a typical year. I know a lot of salesmen who claim that the sky is the limit when it comes to their income, but I also know these guys are trying as hard as everyone else to put away enough money to retire on with their actual income at around $50,000 to $100,000 a year.

Thanks,
Richard

So, Danny, I don't get why the mention of "fantasy land" posts (people being dishonest, to lead people astray or to boost their own ego) got brought up on this thread, and is being focused on. I think someone else brought up the topic before you did. You also said that you didn't indicate that anyone on this thread was behaving that way. Does it have anything to do with the money that people really ask for their show?

Again, just trying to understand what you are saying (and not trying to put words into your mouth). That's why I keep asking for clarification.

- Donald

P.S. I agree, Richard, that some incomes are not typical. If you go to marketing websites, they have earnings disclaimers. It all depends on the individual. If everyone could earn tons of cash easily (and ethically), I'm sure we all would be.

Richard,

Well-Spoke, well balanced… thank you!

Is $2,500 the “NORM” in magic… I don’t think so either. And I am NOT sure that Randy suggested such a thing either at least in the books of his I read I also have most all of his products and I could (with out having to re-read every word there in) see him say that is may be HIS norm, but likely not “THE” norm in all of magic even is we take into consideration than the largest bisection of our industry is still the family performer which is ‘mostly’ no where near that kind of fee…

Again, with-out re-reading every single word he has written an the context with witch it resides, I can’t PROVE that he did or did-not say such a thing. Maybe YOU can help by giving us the specific location of the claim you site?

But, by n’ large I agree with your over-all, balanced prospective offered in this last post.

Thank You.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Danny,



I guess THAT is “your reality”. Notice very clearly that I suggested that any “bliss-out” and their life would all of a sudden be successful. You are making leaps and false assumptions based on “your own” belief system.

I am talking about “balance”. Well balanced lives and mindset! Clearly there are those who INSIST that business is drying up or has even already dried-up… many of us here site experience otherwise, even in many of the SAME geographic regions… WHO is RIGHT?

BOTH! (For ‘each’ of them and their own lives.)

We are NOT disputing that.



I have NEVER suggested anything to the contrary! YOU and a few others, on the other hand have all but called us liars who live in some “fantasy-land” of your design all because we ARE in fact getting work???

How is THAT a ‘reality’ based perspective?




What ‘obvious nonsense’? That fact that in the face of those who are NOT getting results in business SOME Truly ARE? - - Is THAT the nonsense you are eluding to?

Not ‘nonsense’ at all…

I agree whole heartedly that SOME will always ‘thrive’ (as is proven here) while other struggle to ‘survive’. (which is ALSO proven here!) THAT, as I see it is a simple fact of life that is once again born-out right HERE in this very discussion, BUT it doesn’t have to be that ALL that are indeed struggling need continue to do so. THAT is an individual choice.



What does what Nicolas posted have to do with “our attitudes” and respectively our SUCCESS accordingly???

He said that ”HE” was frustrated with other HE "cought in a lie" and pointed it out… fine, but to insist that ALL, or even MOST who share our success here, or that have a differing view are all of a sudden, are "automatically ling, fabricating untruths or extreme" in any way is patently un-provable & irrelevant to the subject and all we can deal with, in ‘reality’! (That thing you insist YOU have corner on the market on) I don't see that as "ralistic" at all brother.

It would be best for all of us if we stay on track here…



SEE? Because YOU ‘insist’ that we are ‘harmful’ doesn’t make it so! That is YOUR particular “belief system” at work! How about considering that many here have really “HELPED” by this thread and discussion (and others) depending on their individual perspective may not be as much... oh well. it is what it is.

I think THAT is a much more balanced perspective and ‘reality’, isn’t it?

Certainly you (and some others) are working on the skewed assertion/assumption that some of us are lying or making stuff up. “IF” that were the case (ON BOTH ENDS OF THE DISCUSSION) then I might agree that untested lies are of little or no REAL value, but WHO is telling the truth here?

OF COURSE patient lies are of little or no value anyone as, by definition, it is false or incomplete, maybe even incorrect information, so YES that is no good for anyone…

Is anyone here see this as obvious??? Like “No-Duh-101” isn’t it? Of Course lies are no good, BUT then the question becomes WHO is lying? And WHO is the final arbiter of truth?

YOU? (ANY of us here??? Accept where PROVEN!) - - I don’t think so.

It certainly ain’t ME, but I have never suggested that I am the “keeper of the truth”. Never in a million years would is suggest such a thing and anyone who would try is NOT, n fact, dealing in “REALITY”! - - Right?



I AM saying that more success is possible when we apply hard work and dedication! I would also ADD that a productive, success mindset is very useful because it has been proven that, in fact, “WE DO GET MORE OF WHAT WE ARE WILLING TO BELIEVE WE ARE CAPABLE OF” as long as they don’t sit-around blessing out WAITING for the phone to ring!

Again, all together we all say “DUH!”



WHAT??? Who EVER suggested that “anyone” should do “anything” when the situation does not call for it???? Which on of your ‘realities’ is THAT coming out of??? Com ON!

All myself on most others have said are “in perspective and balance”. WHERE are you getting theses patently false assumptions… ( rhetorical question that proven MY POINT…) “Your own “BELIEF SYSTEM”. That’s where!

Is THAT the “reality” you insist we ALL subscribe to??? Really??? No Thank You, and as I have always said, YOU are 110% welcome to it, just don’t try and FORCE “me” or anyone else here who believes and behaves differently that YOUR’S is the ONLY truth or ‘reality’… it is NOT!



Like DUH! That is all I (we) have said.

Okey Dokey… I’m out now. Bu-By, move it along now! (Hehehehehehe)

I am at your service and in HIS Service,
Deano (not a fan of mind-games & semantics) in Reno
<><

Deano did you miss the above quote from me?

I know you comprehend well, and I am shocked you think I am attacking you when I SPACIFICALLY SAID I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT ANYONE ON THIS THREAD! Donald same goes for you.

Why do you need clarification when it sits right in front of you?

I don't know why you guys think you are being singled out or attacked. Dean, you have always backed up what you said. No biggie. Donald I don't know you but again I refer you to the above quote.

The question is why you guys are so defensive about this? Show me where I singled you guys out and called you LIARS please. I don't believe I did that and the above quote simple makes it not true.

Please put the fur down and the claws away guys. I am not speaking about either of you as I stated earlier. Can we let it go?

Again Danny... as already stated; over and over again (Ho Hum...) and yet it seams that hallucinations abound! (Your stuff in much more potent than mine apparently! – Hehehehehe!)

Brother, no one is 'attacking' you least of all me. All I did was respond to your post. (Even in context to be safe, oh well) How is THAT "attacking"?

Obviously again, it’s that funny 'mindset' thing where false accretions and assumptions seam to reign instead of the real facts offered. - - Absolutely no flying fur, or claws anywhere in site on this end of the keyboard to be sure.

Differing point of view, experience and results having to do with the subject at hand, maybe… nothing more. Not sure how THAT constitutes “attacking”.

I guess THAT is part of the communication challenge with “TYPING” alone, when the ‘unsaid’ gets stated as some kind of fact. - - Fact it is not. Fiction it has become.

I am truly sorry I have tried my best to HELP and somehow failed.

I am on to the next discussion now. Thank You.

I am, as always, at your service and In HIS Service,
Deano in Reno
<><

Micheal - I have no problems with people who work part time or have other jobs. There is no correlation between quality of the show and other work you might have. I am referring to people who LIE about being full time when really, they require extra money from another job.

Hi Danny -

No claws, and I'm not upset.

I am clear now (and I was clear a few posts ago) that you are not talking about people on this thread.

I'm just wondering why it is one of the focal points of discussion, when we all seem to agree that no one here is exaggerating (on this thread), and we all seem to agree that exaggerating is not a good thing to do?

Is it just because it bothers you, and this seemed like a good thread to mention it on (and someone else had brought it up first)? Or is there more to it?

Again, we're cool. I'm just trying to understand the relevance of that sub-topic.

- Donald

P.S. The comments like "...How about being grounded in reality, and not slogans and BS?..." could have been interpreted as a bit of a jab at certain people who use slogans and quotes sometimes in their posts.