I have managed to memorize both the Aronson and the Tamariz stacks, & I use them both on different occasions depending on the effects I'm performing. Here's what I'm wondering. What would be some powerful magic that could be done with 2 decks, one red, and one blue; each in a different stack? I want something stronger than just name the card in each deck at number X, or the Y card is at #x in this deck & is at number Z in the other deck. Any ideas? Thanks.

Anyone out there?

Mike,

I'm not certain I completely understand your parameters.

In his "Try the Impossible" book, Simon Aronson has an effect that involves two couples. (I cannot remember the name of this effect but, if interested, I'll go look it up.) The two husbands each pick a card from the same deck and the wives each pick a card from a 2nd deck. Yet, when the cards in both decks are dealt out, the two cards of one husband/wife set are each arrived at at the same time! Same effect for the second husband/wife set. A nice alternative to the traditional "Anniversary Waltz" effect.

Simon also has a single deck version in the same book for two people where the deck is cut in half and one half turned up and the cards from each stack are dealt simultaneously one at a time. When one of the spectator's cards shows up in the face up pile, the card in the face down pile at the same location turns up at the same time. This effect is called "Random Tandem" and is really quite startling to see occur.

Not quite what you were looking for but maybe you can ust these. Hope this helps.

Best,

Mike

Thanks, Turk. I have the book and will look it up. I don't recall the effect. It might get me started down the road.
To try and explain more clearly. I have both Aronson and Tamariz's stacks memorized and am equally comfortable using either one. What I'm looking for is a trick that would use them both at the same time. One deck being red, the other blue.Let's say the Aronson stack is the red deck and the Tamariz stack is the blue. Any spectator studying the decks arrangement would see no pattern, since the stacks are different. I'm looking for an effect that would allow me to use both decks simultaneously, and thus both stacks simultaneouly to reach some astounding conclusion. The trick you describe sounds somewhat different, but I like the 2 couple idea.

Mike,

Thanks for the clarification.

Since you have "Try the Impossible", I went and looked up the effect I was thinking of. It is the 4 person version of "Doubly Undone--with Two Decks" at page 81. And since the effect does NOT require any memorized deck, it seems to me that you could just as well set one deck in Aronson Stack and the other in Tamariz stack and easily perform this effect. Of course, if you do use these two deck stacks, your two "lucky cards" for each deck will be different but you could easily explain that away. (i.e., The only actual requirement is that two indicator cards be at the same two pre-determined positions in each deck. For instance, the 12th and 30th positions.)

I dunno, I think that you can perform this effect using the AS and Tamariz stack but, if you did, you might have to make a few minor "modifications" if you wished to have the SAME two indicator cards appearing at the same two positions in each of the two decks.

Hope you can work this out and use the effect. It is a tremendous effect for two couples. (Proves synchronicity or that the husband and wife in each couple were made for each other, etc.)

Best, regards,

Mike

Yes, I found it and like it alot. I'm now trying to see how to make it work. Both Aronson & Tamariz share some cards that are the identical stack #. In both stacks the ten of hearts is 38, the queen of spades is 48, and the 9 of diamonds is 52.By cutting each deck these of course can be worked to other positions at the start. I'm going to work on it. It doesn't really take advantage of my knowing the 2 stacks, but it has other possibilities.Thanks.

Studies show extemporaneous thinking facilitates creative thinking. I'd suggest taking out a third, thoroughly mixed deck, cutting random cards and seeing what you can put together between the two mem stacks a la "The Trick That Cannot Be Explained." Also, the fact the 9D is on the bottom of both stacks strikes me as more of a built-in liability than an aide. Granted, it's overcome without much difficulty, but still...

Eric Mead says he does the Trick that Cannot Be Explained with two packs, but one of the decks is shuffled by spectators, which makes for a more interactive experience.

Turk,
The effect works quite well with two couples. I simply cut each stack to position the 10 of hearts at 18 and thus the nine of diamonds is at 32. The women cut from one stack, the men from the other. My two cards in each stack give me the places to "undo" and then by dealing face up simultaneously each couple will find their cards at the same time by saying stop at the same time. The decks have no other common elements, and it looks good. Thanks.
Mike

Cain,
Thanks for the ideas. I'll try working in that direction. I have Eric's book and I do some jazz mem work. The nine of diamonds on the bottom is really no problem. It's quite easy to move it in one deck to # 1 or 51 and the spectator's are none the wiser.

Mike,

I'm glad you liked it and can use it. I think that it is very strong...especially for two couples simultaneously. IMHO, this is a real "sleeper" of Simon's.

Best,

Mike

Mike,

I'm glad you liked it and can use it. And, you are correct, "...it looks good."

Best,

Mike

Complementary Memorized Stacks

The question that Mike poses (i.e. what effects can be accomplished that take advantage of knowing two (2) different memorized stacks) is actually not as esoteric as readers might first think – because, as I’ve mentioned elsewhere, once you truly know one stack, that stack itself can, by the application of any simple “substitution rule” generate a second stack. So, instead of having to fully start from scratch and memorize a second stack cold, you can always form your second stack based on your initial stack. (And often, this has some advantages).

Let me offer a simple example. Assume you use the Aronson stack (which happens to be the one I use). To generate a second stack, let’s use an age-old “pairing” rule that every magician already knows, uses and is completely comfortable with: namely, the standard Invisible Deck pairs. (Each value is paired with the value that, when added to it, totals 13. So Aces pair with Queens, Threes pair with Tens, Sixes pair with Sevens, and so on. For Suits, the two Minor suits (Clubs and Diamonds) are paired with each other, as are Hearts with Spades. As in the Invisible Deck, the Kings are a special case, and are paired with each other, Minor with Minor, Major with Major). Applying this pairing concept as a substitution rule, you can now quickly generate a new, different looking and differently ordered stack, by substituting for each original card its complementary pair. (Thus, for Aronson stack users, in this new stack the first four cards would run 2H, KD, 8D, JS …and so on).

Now, this second stack is clearly not a truly “memorized” stack in the classic sense of having every position known “by memory,” but it’s half way there: for anyone who has memorized the original, there is simple one step “formula” that can be applied to determine a card or a number anywhere in the second stack. (Example: where is the 3C in the new stack? Since the 3C’s complement is the 10D, and that card’s stack number is 32 (in the Aronson stack), then the 3C will be at 32 in the new stack. Conversely, what card is at, say position 12 in the new stack? Stack number 12 in Aronson is the 5H, so in the new stack is the 8S, its complement.) Just a few minutes practice will demonstrate how quick and easy this conversion is.

A formula stack may not work for all effects, but it may very well work for the particular effect you ultimately want to perform (see the suggestions below). And this kind of formula second stack has a few advantages, that a second random stack doesn’t have. First, it’s much quicker and easier to learn, if you do decide to fully memorize it, because the formula is itself the crutch or backup to fall back on, until you know it cold. Second, this kind of formula pairing makes sure there are no “accidental coincidental” matches, if you deal both decks face up simultaneously. Third, it may actually preserve some (not all) of the built in features that might be present in your original stack. (You’ll have to experiment around with this, because different formulae work differently. Spelling usually isn’t preserved but four of a kind may be). Finally, let me repeat: any formula or rule for pairing two cards could be used, not just the Invisible Deck example given here.

Bottom line: anyone can know/learn a second stack, once you know your first.

Now, for the more practical question: are there any good effects that utilize two such stacks? I’ve experimented with this, off and on for years, but I haven’t been enthralled with anything to date. There are a number of coincidence effects that could be performed (I outline one below) but candidly I’m not confident that their procedure isn’t a bit too cumbersome. (You always want to compare the new with whatever else we can already accomplish, and I’m not sure I see any clear superiority over one stack effects that we all know). But, since Mike asked, here is the bare bones of one such possible effect:

The performer introduces three (yes, 3) cased decks. Spectator A names any #, from 1 – 52, and selects a deck. The other two decks are held by B and C. A’s selected deck is uncased, shuffled and shown to be random, and from it Specs B and C each select a card. Each one now opens his held deck, deals his respective deck face up, simultaneously, counting until they reach A’s named number. On turning over the card at that named number, each one discovers the duplicate of his own selected card.

The method is obvious to mem-deck practitioners. Two of the decks are in the two relevant stack orders, and the third deck can be random (or stacked to provide easier proximity to the pairs). This third deck is the one that gets forced on A (equivoque is applicable here.) On hearing the named number the performer instantly knows the two cards he has to force, culls them together, and freely shuffles the rest of the deck, keeping the two target cards under his control. He then forces them on B and C, using any good force method for two cards (the Gemini Twins procedure works well here). The rest of the effect is just presentation, to build it up into a blockbuster.

Further ideas: The effect is more miraculous if you apparently don’t know the named #, so instead of having it named, have it written down using a peek wallet. You can allow a much freer choice of decks at the outset. Just preset the third deck to duplicate one of your two stacks, say Stack #1. Then ask B to select any deck: two thirds of the time he’ll get a Stack 1, which you would then shuffle and use for the selections. One third of the time he’ll get Stack 2 in which case you tell him to put it in his pocket. Then ask C to choose either of the remaining decks and put it in his pocket; he has to get a Stack 2. Then use the final remaining deck for the selections. Either way looks quite fair.

Here’s an unrelated bonus idea. Since practically all magicians know the Invisible Deck pairing, this means that a fellow magi can quickly become a secret stooge, without having to memorize a deck. How? Because if any playing card is named in deck #1, your stooge will secretly but instantly know the card at that same position in deck #2. This can be the grounds of an interesting coincidence effect, if your fellow magi appears to be a second innocent spectator. (You’ll have to create the rest of such an effect for yourself).

So, as is typical with most of my writing, this has gone on too long. But it’s always worth thinking about.

Simon Aronson

Wow! I never dreamed I'd hear from one of my idols because of this question! I can't thank you enough for responding, Simon. You've really got my wheels turning with your suggestions. I can honestly say that I get more response from my memorized deck magic than anything I do. I will always be indebted to Mike Close for guiding me to your work, to you, and to Senor Tamariz for giving me so much wonderful magic to perform. Thanks again for responding to this post.

Great to see Simon Aronson posting here. What a great response it was.

Yeah, but he gets most of his good ideas from ME!

Mergel

And GREAT to have Mergel back as well!

I'm still unclear on the purspose of two different stacks. I would think 2 decks in the same stack, one cut at 26 would be enough and it would appear to be in a differnt order, althought it is not

There is no specific purpose. It just happens that I first learned the Aronson stack, then when Tamariz's book came out, I also learned his stack. I'm able to keep both in my head quite easily. I use them both, depending on which stack/ specific tricks I might be performing at the time. I think this knowledge of both stacks might offer some interesting possibilities, since the arrangements are truly different. I'm looking for ways to use that knowledge. That was the intent behind the original question. I doubt many spectators ever consider you are using a memorized stack, but if they ever did, and the decks are different, they wouldn't have a prayer. I'm not saying the issue would ever come up. I'm just trying to see if there's some effects possible that otherwise wouldn't be because of knowing two stacks. Simon has proposed some interesting possibilities. I suspect there are more.

I had a idea after seeing one of those UV kits from liam. made me wonder what you could do if you stacked the deck in one order, then marked the cards to show a different stack.

so a deck in arronson order that shows a value of the other stack when you shine the light. I'm not sure what yet, but id think you could do some interesting things. Essenually 2 memorized stacks in one deck

so for example the jack of spades would show the 4 of clubs under UV light.

anyone got any ideas on uses?

Here's a thought using the UV thing Joshua Barrett mentioned. Do the Tamariz Any Poker hand called for as it would work with his deck. Deal the cards. Show it to be inncorrect thanks to the actual cards in Aronson stack order. Use the light to show the correct hand called for. Its just an idea but maybe it could work. Hope it may spark some other ideas. Im eager to see what other people think. I too have memorized both stacks and would like to see what effects could be created using both stacks.