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MickeyPainless Inner circle California 6042 Posts 
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I've had a similar situation as Jonathan when my assistant told me she saw CA expose the salt shaker through the table. I did the exact same handling with a shot glass and totally blew her away!
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Cain Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 1591 Posts
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You're not supposed to give away the secret, and you're especially not supposed to give the secret without solicitation to a lay audience. Now, I suppose some apologist could say he even repeats an Elmsley count after explaining it, demonstrating the audience cannot retain, let alone apply, this esoteric information. Of course, the second time around he's telling them that he's using a different method altogether -- "real" magic -- so they've already been mentally misdirected.
Is it a HUGE deal? No. We're talking about showing people card tricks, not secretly infecting children with AIDS. I am however slightly disconcerted by above comments suggesting Reset is only for Paul Harris to expose. Of course, anybody is free to expose anything she wants, but it's ethically questionable to explain standard moves for your original trick. Be a good ambassador for magic. What I frickin' hate is how these sort of people are basically free-riders. Yes, this also applies to Penn & Teller. It's like you have two parents, and one of them is so responsible that the other does not see the harm in letting the kids stay up late and have ice cream. After all, it's just one night and probably nothing bad is going to happen. How convenient that if something does happen others will be burdened with the consequences. We might not never even learn the reason why a spectator politely asked to see the cards again, slowly, one at time, is because a magician once demonstrated a false display. I would love to be this guy's volunteer, putting my finger on the back of the aces. Then when he's done I'll turn over the other cards on the table. Who knew you needed specially printed cards in order to perform "real" magic.
Ellusionst discussing the Arcane Playing cards: "Michaelangelo took four years to create the Sistine Chapel masterpiece... these took five."
Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes: "You know Einstein got bad grades as a kid? Well, mine are even worse!" |
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kammagic Inner circle 1304 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-05-07 22:00, Cain wrote: That would be a very mean thing to do. You would have to hate the performer to do such a thing. People are assuming that layman armed with secret info are going to run free causing trouble for all magicians. The only reason a layman would do such a thing is because they were a jerk in the first place or the magician made them mad. No layman is simply going to say "Oh boy I have secret information I am going to go ruin someone's career or humiliate somone or make someone look stupid. If you perform in a likable style even these jerks are not going to bother you. If you make your audiences like you nobody will bother your performance even someone who knows what you are doing. |
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rick727 Regular user Houston, TX, USA 191 Posts
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Quote:
That would be a very mean thing to do. You would have to hate the performer to do such a thing. Kamm, I think Cain was being a little facetious when he wrote that, or at least I hope he was. I thought about it, but decided rather quickly that would not be appropriate. I didn't like what he was doing, but I was not going to lower myself. A few people have commented that the "explanation" was so fast that even I, a magician, could not keep track. That is not true. I did keep track. I counted 7 sleights that he revealed and I listed them in the original post (I left Elmsley Count off the list but it was very late when I wrote the post - I had a very long day). And there are parts that he does race through in order to dazzle the audience. If this were the case, then fine, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But it wasn't. What I watched, what the audience saw, did include some specific points where the audience could keep pace and see exactly what was happening. As an example, I will refer to the Ascanio Spread. He showed it, named it correctly, and then showed that a 5th card was hidden underneath. He did it plainly and clearly, and then repeated it with 3 cards (4th card hidden). Remember, my complaint is not that people will remember the routine, but that they have just been taught the sleights. An Ascanio spread is a pretty unique display. I only show 4 cards in that manner when I am doing the move. I have exchanged e-mails with Paul and pointed out my concern.
Practice what you present.
Present what you practice. |
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MickeyPainless Inner circle California 6042 Posts
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***(I left Elmsley Count off the list but it was very late when I wrote the post - I had a very long day).***
Then some lunatic from California gave me a ration of **** about glass houses and rocks............ LMAO! |
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13426 Posts
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I'm surprised he said he's been doing it for 12 years. His Mac Aces routine looks like he's done it for 3 months. The rest with the patter he uses seem like he's been doing it for a couple 3 years max. He just doesn't seem 12 years smooth to me.
I don't think laymen are going to walk away with anything but I still think it's a ridiculous excuse to expose many wonderful slights. He's basically telling people how much he knows and I found it the presentation not that interesting. He wouldn't make it on the street. Bottom line... Like a stripper, anyone can gather a crowd via exposure. Let's see him do it the hard way and the legitimate way without the exposure. And for goodness sake, the Mac Aces routine needs some work. He could learn a lot just watching the Michael Ammar video. #1 is it? or #2?
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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kammagic Inner circle 1304 Posts
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On 2008-05-07 22:54, rick727 wrote: I know Cain was being a little facetious. My point is nobody is going to bust you out if you are likable. There are many ways to do the Ascanio spread. If you really need to use and are self conscious about the display then that will come across in your performance. There are many different versions of the ascanio spread that you could do tat would fool your audiences. To me Reset is a routine I would never do because its so un natural. You pick up the card you put it back you put it down you pick it up. The routine is full of holds and spreads and counts that are all unnatural. The Ascanio spread being one of them. He couldn't of picked a better routine to expose. Reset is a great routine for beginners to learn these moves but a routine with so many moves is just not good magic. Magic should be simple and direct. The comment came up "What if that audience sees that trick again. They will now know what to look for. That is just ridiculous. A layman is lucky if he gets to see a professional magician once in his life. If by chance they do see another magician and he does this same effect. It would be so far apart that everyone would of forgotten this guys performance. Seriously this guy is not hurting anyone. |
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rick727 Regular user Houston, TX, USA 191 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-05-07 23:56, MickeyPainless wrote: Actually Mickey, it was YOU who gave ME crap about glass houses and stones 
Practice what you present.
Present what you practice. |
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MickeyPainless Inner circle California 6042 Posts
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I know Rick, I was makin a joke!
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BarryFernelius Inner circle Still learning, even though I've made 2592 Posts
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I just watched the video in question on Paul Nathan's website. It was a fairly rough, amateurish effort.
What I found most fascinating was the fact that most of the people at Paul's cabaret show seemed much more interested in talking with each other and milling around. Most of the folks didn't seem to be very focused on the magic or the magician. This was a magical performance that was equivalent to background music. This video is an example of the trivialization of the art of magic, something that is far more insidious than the exposure. This video says, in effect, that card tricks are boring, geeky, and not worthy of anyone's serious attention. I don't think that the exposure increases the impact of the McDonald's Aces at all. I'm at a loss; I can't imagine why Paul Nathan would feature this video on his website. If I were in the market for a magician, and I lived in San Francisco, I think that I'd hire someone like Jay Alexander.
"To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and not quite enough time."
-Leonard Bernstein |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts
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So, every magician who follows Mr. Nathan should be skilled enough to entertain their audience despite Mr. Nathan's exposure of their methods, but Mr. Nathan isn't expected to be skilled enough to make McDonald's Aces entertaining without engaging in that exposure?
What's wrong with this picture? |
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kammagic Inner circle 1304 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-05-08 01:29, BarryFernelius wrote: If you are going to critique videos why doesn't Jay have any live shots of him working. They all look staged and the reactions canned. The camera only shows him on stage and no audience then at the end they cut to what could be any audience standing up for who knows who. My point is you really shouldn't be so critical of Paul. There is no way you can make the judgements you made accurately simply by watching his video. You don't know how captivated his audience was. Paul isn't hurting anyone with his performance so why don't we leave him alone. ... seriously. |
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ghostpianist Loyal user 274 Posts
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It is apparent in the video that the explantion was intended as a set up for the following trick.
The question is: did it have to go this deep? I think not. P.S. Paul Nathan's skill has nothing to do with this dicussion, |
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DStachowiak Inner circle Baltimore, MD 2158 Posts
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On 2008-05-08 00:06, kammagic wrote: Nobody? If you have never been harassed by an idiot, simply because he hates all magic in general, you are very, very lucky. Have you ever worked for a group of drunks? Don
Woke up.
Fell out of bed. Dragged a comb across m' head. |
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rick727 Regular user Houston, TX, USA 191 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-05-08 00:06, kammagic wrote: Kamm, my point is that he exposed the tools that I use. For example, the Ascanio spread has a unique display (I only know of one way to do a 4 card Ascanio spread, there may be others). If I were to do an Ascanio spread they would instantly know I was hiding a 5th card. Your point about a lay person seeing a professional magician once in his life does have merit. However, there were 3 magicians at this particular tradeshow (4 if you count me, but I was working as an employee for my company, not focusing on the magic - I just did a few tricks to gather some people into our company display). One of the other magicians, Scott Wells, was doing a card trick when the spec reached out and pointed to Scott's pinky break, and said something to his associate in a foreign language. Aside from being a fine magician, Scott Wells is one of the nicest, most engaging, most pleasant people in the world whether he is doing magic or socializing. After I told Scott about what I saw he told me that it probably explained why this guy did that to him. You may be right, the lay audience may never see another magician. This whole thread may be irrelevant (I hope it is). But my original posts still stands - that the exposure of these sleights in a tradeshow setting is wrong.
Practice what you present.
Present what you practice. |
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Simon Bakker Special user the Netherlands 587 Posts
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I agree with the people who said that this exposure probably isn't gonna hurt anyone. If I lived in his area I certainly would not be bothered about it. Did you guys notice that he actually lost a part of his audience during the explanations?
But having said that I don't see any reason why you should do such a thing. I actually found the 'sucker'part where he explained the things very, very fast, somewhat funny. Then he went on to explain sleights and terms. I don't see any reason behind that. I don't find it respectful and ethical, but again I think it isn't gonna hurt magicians in any way. His claims of 'real magic' are outragous, I didn't think the 'explanation' part gave it a boost. There are probably much more ethical ways and even easier ways to make that performance better. @ Ghostpianist: P.S. Paul Nathan's skill has nothing to do with this dicussion. If you are talking about his technical skills I agree with you. But his presentational skills do have something to do with this discussion. The way I see it he is using exposure to make the next part of his act more interesting. The exposure is thus part of his presentation. Simon |
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Robert M Inner circle 2482 Posts
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Not hurting anyone? Are you kidding?? Paul Nathan just ruined it for any card magician who has the bad fortune of performing for someone in this crowd in the future. (At least someone who was paying attention.) Can you imagine the damage done over a 12 year period? Exposing the DL was the worst - there goes half of my card repertoire.
This is not only a really bad idea - it hurts other magicians. I am positive that Paul Harris would not sanction something ridiculous like this. Robert |
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Jay Alexander New user San Francisco 28 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-05-08 03:10, kammagic wrote: I have no idea why I became part of this discussion to begin with but KAMMAGIC is wrong and out of line. Maybe the editing is not to your liking but my video was edited from LIVE shows. Magicians on this forum such as Tom Cutts, Christian Cagigal, Big Al Catraz, Fred Casto were all at the tapings as well as both Dr. Bob Albo & Dexter are in the standing ovation at the end. Funny enough, Paul Nathan was at one of the shows as well. Best, Jay Alexander P.S. kammagic: watch again, I have many live shots! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2xvmDYj5......&index=1 |
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rick727 Regular user Houston, TX, USA 191 Posts
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Jay, you were originally brought into this discussion when BarryFernelius said, "If I were in the market for a magician, and I lived in San Francisco, I think that I'd hire someone like Jay Alexander." I checked out your promo video. It was nicely done. The final shot with Kieth Richards was a little creepy, but that is a topic for another discussion
 (I'm just kidding!!!)
Practice what you present.
Present what you practice. |
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BarryFernelius Inner circle Still learning, even though I've made 2592 Posts
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Jonathan (kammagic),
I've seen Jay work. His promo video is well done, and he's even better live. I'll make no apologies for putting in a plug for him. He's a consummate professional. Perhaps Paul Nathan is very captivating when he performs live, but this certainly isn't captured very well on his video. I was not critiquing Paul's live performance, but I was making accurate comments about his promotional video. As always, you're welcome to disagree, and I certainly expect that you'll need to have the last word about this.
"To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and not quite enough time."
-Leonard Bernstein |
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Posted: May 8, 2008 01:16 am 
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