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erlandish Inner circle Vancouver, Canada 1254 Posts 
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On 2008-05-15 20:56, Robert M wrote: Robert, for what it's worth, I'm not condoning what this guy does, but I can't stop him from doing what he's doing. Given that, I might as well figure out how to deal with it in my own performances. |
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kammagic Inner circle 1304 Posts
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On 2008-05-15 20:56, Robert M wrote: Have you seriously seen another magicians performance ruined by exposure. Please explain a scenario in which this would happen. I beleive you are totally over reacting. If exposure is as bad as you seem to think it is then there should be hundreds of documented occurances that you could give as examples. But you and I both know it just doesn't happen. |
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spatlind Special user still moving 863 Posts
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BORING!!!! BORING!!!! BORING!!!!
1. Don't expose 2. Ok, cancel methods. Be flawless, but please for the love of (insert wacky belief here) why do you need your specs to believe that you are (insert wacky belief here) and if you have a(n) (insert wacky belief here) then you are going to (insert wacky belief here) anyway, so who cares. 3. Obey the rule of three
Actions lie louder than words - Carolyn Wells
I believe in God, only I spell it Nature - Frank Lloyd Wright. |
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts
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I think the only thing all of us can agree on from this thread is that a lot of magicians are horrible spellers.
And that ain't know jouke.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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gr8tones New user 1 Post
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I am one who believes in secrets remaining secret. I once complained over a magic store openly advertising a magic lecture. A well known magician put me in my place. I have had 30 years to think about it. The more people learn about magic the larger our art grows. A well presented routine often fools and frequently intertains me. I still stress over any revelations. Lay people know way too much for me. In the 30 plus years I must admit that our art has grown leaps and bounds.
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kammagic Inner circle 1304 Posts
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On 2008-05-16 00:00, Frank Starsini wrote: I often post from my phone. So I may miss some things now and then. |
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Robert M Inner circle 2482 Posts
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On 2008-05-15 22:17, kammagic wrote: Yes, it happened to me. (See Page 1) Hundreds of "documented occurrences"? Who exactly is in charge of documenting these occurrences? ;-) It may not have happened to you yet, but when (and if) it does, I think you might change your tune. That's all I'm saying. This has been a good discussion. Lots of interesting viewpoints. I just hope there aren't any more Paul Nathans out there. Robert |
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clarissa35f Veteran user 363 Posts
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On 2008-05-16 00:00, Frank Starsini wrote: I disagree entirely, I think Most magicians are good spelers... a few ned help typiong thouggh.. Ok joking aside. Why is it that since Penn and Teller tipped the Cups and Balls routine, suddenly it's perfectly ok to expose? I remember growing up hearing that magicians never reveal their secrets. I will admit, half the appeal of being a magician is that sacred oath. I feel like I am in a secret club. it has romance. The romance of it does not JUST appeal to the spectator, but to the magician as well. I am Mysterious, my code sets me apart... you get the point. Now Nathan exposes himself, and Not only are spectators forced into learning crap they may not want to know...but my secret vow is cheapened, My secret club...less secret. It ruins my perception of what magic is. It tarnishes what I thought magic was supposed to be. So to answer above. Yes Nathan has affected me, even if no one has been able to say.." oooh that's a DL...and that is a blah blah blah." My experience seems less mysterious, less romantic than it was before I heard of this Nathan guy. But there have been plenty of people exposing themselves you say? That's not the point. There will always be exposers. What has tarnished it for me is the volume of Nathan's Apologists. The general division in the community. I expected that he would be decisively shouted down... that we would be a union against exposure. But it just seems for many it's " oh well, no big deal... why all the fuss?" And to me that's the big deal. The general lack of concern in many magicians that do not seem to be concerned.
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous> "There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn> |
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kammagic Inner circle 1304 Posts
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On 2008-05-07 12:14, Robert M wrote: Did the pastor tell this woman to go around making trouble for magicians? ...no. She is a rude person. The reason she inturupted you was because who she was and not the information she had attained. Honestly this does not sound like you were doing a paid performance here. If it had been the audience should shut her down imediately or you should of taken her aside and explained to her how God would strike her down.  just kidding. But you need to speak to the person in a way they understand. Exposure is not the reason this woman is rude and annoying.
You could of told here since she knows about magic she could help you out. Then involve her in an effect that makes her look like the hero. She will be your friend after that. Once you have her as a friend ask her to help you out and not ruin the show for the other guests. After all you just made her a magician so she will get a kick out of now keeping the secret. Its our job to come off as likable. People should not want to attack our performances. People are rude on their own it is not exposure that makes them that way. |
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clarissa35f Veteran user 363 Posts
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Hmmm.. that sounds Like If I get mugged by a mugger with a Gun, I should realize the Gun had nothing to do with it. After all, the mugger would have robbed me even if he were barehanded. Umm...the gun really helps though, you agree?
Same here. Whether she would have been rude regardless is beside the point. She was a rude person with ammunition. And the ammunition was given ti her by an exposer. If she had not had that ammunition, she may never have said a word. Having nothing to say. An exposer takes rude people, and gives them ammunition. Like an illegal gun merchant arms muggers with weapons making them more dangerous. My feeling is if we do not arm rude people with ammunition, we make them less dangerous, since all they have is ...nothing. Kind of Like the mugger. If he had no gun would he still try to mug me? More than Likely yes...but he would also be easier to deal with if he had no gun. Why do we keep arguing that it is perfectly fine to arm rude people with ammunition to burn other magicians? Seems instead of yelling at Nathan for exposing, which then makes it harder for Robert, you are criticizing Robert for not handling the rudeness that has been given ammo by Nathan...while applauding Nathan, for coming up with a cool way to make his routine better. Robert did nothing wrong. Nathan did. Why are people defending Nathan, while telling Robert..., " Bring up your game dude."
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous> "There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn> |
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erlandish Inner circle Vancouver, Canada 1254 Posts
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Clarissa,
I learned not too long ago that any attempt to get something productive going so as to deal with these sorts of guys usually results in an argument that abounds in ego and semantics. There are people who swear that the worst exposure in the world doesn't affect them, and there are people who think that magic stores who let anybody in the front door are part of the problem. With a range like that, attempts at coming to some sort of consensus are doomed from the start. That's why I've been putting work into the series, because I knew the problem was real, but I also knew I wasn't going to get any help from the magic community at large dealing with it. If you do a search on here you might find a lengthy thread about a petition against Youtube exposure, and if you read it, you'll confront a hard truth -- magicians can be a really flaky bunch sometimes. |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts
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On 2008-05-16 16:42, erlandish wrote: Another illusion exposed. You're harsh, man: very harsh. ;) |
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clarissa35f Veteran user 363 Posts
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Anyway... Tomorrow I head to Tannens to pick up Darwin Ortiz's Strong Magic and Designing Miracles.
I took a look at Erland's website. And I have to admit, the idea of designing my own routines has a lot going for it. It's true that laypeople focus more on a routine and may know how a routine is done, but the sleights themselves in other routines fly right over their head. If I cannot get a bunch of magicians to agree that "Exposure ...is...bad." ( I mean like DUHHH) then the least I can do is Bring my game up.
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous> "There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn> |
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kammagic Inner circle 1304 Posts
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On 2008-05-16 15:33, clarissa35f wrote: If a muggers objective is to mug you he will use whatever means necessarry to intimidate you. Gun, knife, his hands, a partner. I have access to guns and other weapons. Does that make me a mugger? If it is someone's objective to ruin a professional magicians performance they will find the information somewhere. Simply exposing a polite mature person to our secrets will not make them use these secrets against us. It is the imature rude jerks that would bother a professional during a performance. Exposing magic does not create these people, they already exist by the thousands. A professional needs to learn how to deal with jerks because they are a reality. Stop blaming their existence on exposure. |
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MAGICofSeth Regular user 106 Posts
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Wow this topic has a lot of posts and strong opinions!
Here are my humble two cents: Audience control is an important part of our repertoire. Any of us that perform in setting where the audience has the ability to disrupt the performance, which should be most of us, understands that we can not simply go on stage and expect everyone to think we are the greatest. Many audiences want you to prove yourself to them first, before they are willing to sit back and enjoy the show. Sad- but true. I find it more on the west coast than the east coast. The east coasters seem to show up for a good time, but out where I am now there is a quick battle at first to win them over, then you can have fun with them. Anyways- one of the most common question I am asked by amateurs is, "How come they never grab the cards from you when you do the trick, but they always try to grab the cards from me after the trick?" The answer is simple, friends. Control. It is subtle if done correctly, and pertinent to any successful performance. It is NOT forcing your audience to sit down, be quite, and clap when I tell you to. It IS handling hecklers, expose-rs, and people who need to be the center of attention during your show with gentle but firm hands. I fear we can not do much to prevent the exposure of our craft. Even the amateur videos on You Tube end exposing some tricks unintentionally. What we can do is provide entertainment that does not expose our own methods, and handle the hecklers who think they know. Maybe start off with a couple of "Sucker" tricks so that they stop trying to figure you out. Maybe tie a heckler up on stage (not kidding) and tell them you'll use them for an effect later, and then not get to it. There are many books about handling your audiences. Let's not allow exposure to ruin our own performances. There's my way too long post. Thanks for reading! |
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kammagic Inner circle 1304 Posts
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On 2008-05-16 17:46, MAGICofSeth wrote: Exactly! Thank you. Great post. |
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clarissa35f Veteran user 363 Posts
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On 2008-05-16 17:36, kammagic wrote: Hmm seems you are reading what I type. And understanding what you wish. Exposure does not create rude people. Exposure arms rude people with more ammunition than they should have. Would they be rude without it? yes. Are they more of a pain with it? yes. Why ? because someone gave them ammunition. Someone like Paul Nathan. Of course we need to do what we can to handle the rude in our audiences. All I am saying is, it is easier to handle someone that mainly says.." saw this before...boring." than someone that says." Ok, Now he has 2 cards instead of one... and here he's hiding 2 other cards...ok..see how he uses his pinky? he's doing... blah blah blah..." The second is only possible because the exposers among us allow it to happen by educating them... Like Paul Nathan. Do I agree that there will always be exposure? Of course. Should we be so lackadaisical about it? I don't think so. One of our own blatantly went against the code we claim to live by. The oath we claim we swore. And instead of saying. " That was messed up, he should not have done that." Some are saying.." No skin off my nose.. what do I care." others are saying.." he had an excuse it made Mac Aces better." and another group is saying.." This is no big deal..." Why swear an oath at all? Why claim to live by a code of secrecy, if the moment someone in our community violates it some say.." phhhtttt... no worries." Of course I will " Bring my A game." that's not what this is about to me. I just feel like a magician should want to speak up about Not exposing, and keeping secrets, secret. Is exposure bad for magic? Yes, to the extent that many can just say.." Hey, it's not really bad that all this exposure is going on." I think that it is. I do not think that when Mark Wilson was learning magic...or Harry Blackstone, or Harry Houdini, that They were saying.." well, if someone exposes ..it's no big deal." and yet..we have that now. Exposure bad for magic? I think we have proof right there.
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous> "There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn> |
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Posted: May 16, 2008 01:38 am 
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