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Greg Arce
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Quote:
On 2008-05-08 17:02, Jaz wrote:
I flip a coin.


I do too. I use a double headed coin... and I always call out tails. Smile

Greg
One of my favorite quotes: "A critic is a legless man who teaches running."
Dannydoyle
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I have to admit I am shocked we have aparant agreement that there IS right and IS wrong.

I had some of the same Prof's as Dustin aparantly. LOL.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Jonathan Townsend
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What's right for a fish is likely not so right for a human being.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Jaz
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Decisions, decisions.

Clinton's decision to become involved with Monica.

Thalidomide gained favor as a treatment for morning sickness. Result: Birth defects.

Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant.

Space Shuttle Challenger.
---------------
"Every great decision creates ripples--like a huge boulder dropped in a lake.
The ripples merge, rebound off the banks in unforseeable ways.
The heavier the decision, the larger the waves, the more uncertain the consequences." - Benjamin "Dizzy" Disraeli
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On 2008-05-11 17:26, Jaz wrote:
"Every great decision creates ripples--like a huge boulder dropped in a lake.
The ripples merge, rebound off the banks in unforseeable ways.
The heavier the decision, the larger the waves, the more uncertain the consequences." - Benjamin "Dizzy" Disraeli


WHOA! Wonderful! Thanks, Jaz.
Jonathan Townsend
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Unfortunately that notion does not help when considering a situation - though it does give historians something to help sort out the record of decisions after the fact when some of the results of EVENTS THAT OCCURRED AFTER THE FACT OF ACTIONS TAKEN TO IMPLEMENT that decision can be identified.

deletions, deletions and generalizations. makes for a very distorted model.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
stoneunhinged
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Jonathan, that's not the point. The point is to see that making a decision is a BIG thing. That's all. Some people don't get that. Some people still believe it's all relative. You know that: you read the Right and Wrong forum just like I do.
Patrick Differ
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Fish do not live in trees
And weapons should not be put on display.

I teach my kids to feel for the right answers as well. I noticed that they were developing this sensitivity at a very early age, so I encourage and challenge them with different scenarios. And now, at the ages of 9 and 11, they have become very sensitive to these feelings, and they are quite accurate in their perceptions. They know the difference between right and wrong by themselves.

While some rely on others to help them decide what's right and wrong, I prefer that I and my kids be able to think and make the decisions for ourselves. Obviously they are picking up most of their habits from me, but they still reach their conclusions by themselves. I only present the problems, I don't provide the answers or solutions.

Deciding what is right and wrong is very easy for most people with balanced brain chemestry. Acting on said decisions is a whole different ball game.
Will you walk into my parlour? said the Spider to the Fly,
Tis the prettiest little parlour that ever you did spy;
The way into my parlour is up a winding stair,
And I've a many curious things to show when you are there.

Oh no, no, said the little Fly, to ask me is in vain,
For who goes up your winding stair
-can ne'er come down again.
Jonathan Townsend
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Patrick, what you presuppose may well be socially useful though what does that have to do with "right" and "wrong" for people? There are some steps between the utility of teaching reflective thinking (put yourself in their position - how do you feel?) and the abstracted notions of right and wrong.

Now go put your head in a bucket of nice fresh water so you can breathe easier. Smile
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Jaz
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So, where or how do we learn to make the right decisions?
Through successes and failures?
Thomas Kwon
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Because, I am still a youngster, making these decisions are actualy very easy for me.

The decision that would benefit me = right

otherwise = wrong
Steve_Mollett
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>"Jonathan, that's not the point. The point is to see that making a decision is a BIG thing."

I don't think Jonathan doubts that a bit. I think he means that 20:20 hindsight does not help at the time the decision is made.

As Richard Bach would reason, all decisions come with consequences, and there is therefore no 'flawless' decision with a guarantee of no trouble or regrets later.

Life's decisions are a 'calculated crapshoot.'
:die: Smile
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth.
- Albert Camus
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2008-05-11 19:16, Jaz wrote:
So, where or how do we learn to make the right decisions?
Through successes and failures?


Better questions deserve better answers - and as such will be phrased as questions us to explore

Right/Wrong:

For who? In what context? With what goals? With what constraints?

By way of example, consider that for the very young it is more important to offer consistency and the impression of certainty than to offer useful information - so in that context it's usually okay in America for a parent to tell their child something like "Why yes Santa has a sleigh and flies by here every year and will remember you this year too." Given that - would it be okay to say that to someone else's child? How about to an adult? What is the difference in context and meaning given that the words and attitude of the statement could be identical and well intentioned?

The position taken in the post above about values based on immediate utilitarian outcomes is also sensible as a first term in evaluating a course of action. What would need to be true for that position to be useful to adults in society?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Jaz
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Would it be right or wrong to kill a derelict to save who you consider to be a great president?

Without any other options would it be right to steal in order feed your family?

Is it O.K. tell a good friend that his wife is cheating on him with another good friend?

Laws, religious and moral concepts are everywhere.
They try to dictate what's right and what's wrong.
Some follow, some bend and some don't care.

With the some knowledge of what is good and evil, right and wrong, we seem doomed to make choices that beneficial to both ourselves and our world.

The post is not about good and evil but rather about right and wrong decision making. Depending on the complexity and context it can be a tough call.
Dannydoyle
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Your ALL wrong, wait right.

AHHHHHHH I'll get back to ya.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
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Guidance please: Who should I vote for?
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2008-05-11 17:38, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Unfortunately that notion does not help when considering a situation - though it does give historians something to help sort out the record of decisions after the fact when some of the results of EVENTS THAT OCCURRED AFTER THE FACT OF ACTIONS TAKEN TO IMPLEMENT that decision can be identified.

deletions, deletions and generalizations. makes for a very distorted model.


Bearing in mind the law of unintended consequences ahead of time can be useful.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2008-05-11 20:51, Jaz wrote:
Would it be right or wrong to kill a derelict to save who you consider to be a great president?

Without any other options would it be right to steal in order feed your family?

Is it O.K. tell a good friend that his wife is cheating on him with another good friend?

Laws, religious and moral concepts are everywhere.
They try to dictate what's right and what's wrong.
Some follow, some bend and some don't care.

With the some knowledge of what is good and evil, right and wrong, we seem doomed to make choices that beneficial to both ourselves and our world.

The post is not about good and evil but rather about right and wrong decision making. Depending on the complexity and context it can be a tough call.



Derelict Q: Yes, if and only if saving the president necessesitated killing the derelict because of the derelict's voluntary actions. e.g. killing the derelict before he could kill the candidiate = Right. Killing the derelict because the only potential organ donor for the candidate said he'd only donate if you killed the derelict = Wrong.


Family Q: Tough Q. Not as to whether you should do it; of course you should. But as to whether it's wrong or not. My suspicion is that it's wrong. Of course, the person you're stealing from, if he/she doesn't need the food to stay alive, is doing the wrong thing by not helping you out, too (which we know he/she isn't doing since the question assumes that stealing is the only alternative).


Definitely ok to tell the friend; and you should reconsider your taste in friends with respect to the other one.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2008-05-11 21:37, LobowolfXXX wrote:...
Bearing in mind the law of unintended consequences ahead of time can be useful.


Okay - remember the one about the guy who quit smoking and was promptly hit by a bus... clearly implies that he would have lived longer had he not quit so it was deadly to quit smoking.

It gets complicated. I suggest we would do well to introduce a common context and go from there about what would be "good" in that context.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2008-05-11 22:12, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-05-11 21:37, LobowolfXXX wrote:...
Bearing in mind the law of unintended consequences ahead of time can be useful.


Okay - remember the one about the guy who quit smoking and was promptly hit by a bus... clearly implies that he would have lived longer had he not quit so it was deadly to quit smoking.



Nope, but I remember the one about the working poor guy who lost his job because people who wanted to help him thought it would be a good idea to raise the minimum wage above a point at which it was beneficial for his employer to have a job for him.

Actions have consequences beyond the more immediate ones that generally drive them. If it doesn't strike you that that fact might be useful when considering one's actions, you're not trying.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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