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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
I created an open oyster by opening it, and then couldn’t open it because it was open. Now I have eaten it I feel truly great. Chthulu… who?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
I guess that means we have logically proven the existence of Chthulu - so it's important to do as the messengers of Chthulu instruct so you will be assured of being eaten first when He wakes to devour the world - right?
Or was that using logic and trickery in an unethical way? Calamari anyone?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Michael Kamen Inner circle Oakland, CA 1315 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-06-12 17:22, Jonathan Townsend wrote: What is your point Jonathan?
Michael Kamen
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
I don't know but this thing that we think we live on, may in reality, be living on us. Think of water like its blood and the rivers its veins and consider the fact that it breathes. We die and it devours us and its been doing so for ages but it never dies. Maybe we are its food and exist to feed it. Maybe the Earth is a big living monster. If it is how can we escape?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-06-12 21:32, Michael Kamen wrote:... I don't condone the use of trickery to set up the anchors upon which one instills/installs beliefs (usually called charlatanry)- yet also know such is historically the case be it via technology or emotional anchored inductions. Those two notions come into conflict at a point or leave gaps in the integrity of one's thinking/feeling.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Michael Kamen Inner circle Oakland, CA 1315 Posts |
Beliefs are certainly a matter of opinion, and they do sell products. Noteworthy that there are laws on the books at least against false advertising, though history shows it happens.
Michael Kamen
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
How to convince others by skillfully using twisted logic
A Special Report America's Small Business Marketing Expert http://www.pertinent.com/articles/persuasion/nunleyP1.asp
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Michael Kamen Inner circle Oakland, CA 1315 Posts |
Great article. We as mag's use "twisted logic" in the sense of the article all the time. My view is, this is magic if it is in service of providing a moment of astonishment. As an ancillary, it may provide insight into both the richness and the fragility of our perceptive powers. But they simply must get at the end, that the premise was false. Otherwise it is not magic in my view.
Michael Kamen
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clarissa35f Veteran user 363 Posts |
I found that article most enlightening. What I really valued was realizing to what extent people use twisted logic all the time... you even see it done here.
The Slippery Slope argument seems to get a lot of play on these forums. Nice to see I can finally put a name to it.
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous> "There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn> |
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Michael Kamen Inner circle Oakland, CA 1315 Posts |
The nice thing about twisted logic is, it can be addressed by non-twisted logic. Its always nice to see when that happens.
Michael Kamen
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clarissa35f Veteran user 363 Posts |
You know Michael, I was never the best debater in school, maybe you can help me here a sec. You admit that Twisted logic, like say a slippery slope argument, can be addressed by a non-twisted logic. maybe you can provide an example on how to use regular logic, to counter the following slippery slope argument...the following twisted logic:
A mentalist that does not issue disclaimers may harm someone watching their performance, even if the mentalist did not actively do anything to cause any harm to anyone. Step 1: There is a Possibility however remote, that the mentalist may be so convincing that a spectator, has their world view so altered as to make them credulous about psychic phenomena. Step 2: The credulousness of this individual, leaves him vulnerable to the predations of the con artist that specializes in mediumistic fakery. Step 3: The chance however remote that this audience member may fall prey to a con artist, and that this was maybe possibly because the guy saw a mentalist that did not issue a disclaimer, although small, is potentially there... Conclusion: By using the above slippery slope argument it can be argued, that the mere act of not issuing a disclaimer during a mentalism routine... can be harmful. How does one use non twisted logic to counter that slippery slope twisted logic argument. I am not saying that the conclusions are or are not fallacious. I am saying that the argument is fallacious. Or maybe the Guilt By Associations Argument. A mentalist that makes no disclaimers is similar to a charlatan...or a Fake Medium... therefore since we all think that Charlatan's and Fake mediums are bad...so is the mentalist that does not issue disclaimers... Interesting article
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous> "There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn> |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
There are some neat articles at that site about how we relate with people and think and so on. What I also like is the way they are written, not too complex for me to understand.:
“Welcome to the new era of tax intelligence. If a tax idea doesn't sound as if it were written in a seminar at Swarthmore College, it is stupid. The more complex, the better.” I read someplace, and “The more complex, the better” thing seems quite popular as I see that sort of thing a lot.. I think! I am never too sure if the thing is to complex for me to understand or they are just making it so that I can‘t understand it.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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clarissa35f Veteran user 363 Posts |
So I take it that you do not know a valid way to refute the Twisted Logic arguments I presented. Or you do not wish to post them? I Guess this is Like saying..
"If you cannot figure it out yourself I won't tell you." But I Notice you do not deny that those arguments are twisted.... fallacious... misleading. Interesting.
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous> "There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn> |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
To be honest I just tend to ignore what I don't understand and do the best with what I can.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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clarissa35f Veteran user 363 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-06-13 12:56, tommy wrote: Tax Lawyers make Tax law so complex so that only another tax lawyer can understand it. Then regular people have to pay tax lawyers to help them with their taxes. If they made it so easy you could understand it, you would not need them...and they would have less work. You find that happens in many professions... Therapy is a good example... You see a therapist for years, then you say you do not feel you need more therapy, the therapist tells you you wish to stop because you are finally making progress and are being forced to look at unpleasant unflattering truths....Now more than ever... you need to continue therapy... your 50 minutes is up... make an appointment for next week, pay the receptionist on the way out. Now it would be awesome to believe the therapist had your best interests at heart. On the other hand, what if he or she had her eye on a new dinette set? And if you stopped coming she would have less than she expected? I think the only answer is... trust the therapist...
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous> "There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn> |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
Bill Hallahan wrote:
Quote:
"By the way, one metric I use to judge whether I think a performer is being ethical, is based on the answer to the following question - "If the audience didn't realize that they had been deceived, and later they came to realize that, would they be annoyed, or even angry, with the performer?" If the answer is, 'yes,' I think the performer is on shaky ethical grounds, at least by my personal ethics. Beautifully expressed. Thank you. |
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Michael Kamen Inner circle Oakland, CA 1315 Posts |
I am at the office, but I can take the time to "ditto" that
Michael Kamen
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
I think Bill Hallahan nailed the problem from the artist's perspective.
It is not so much a moral problem as an artistic one. If we break faith with the audience's understanding of the nature of our presentations, we may do much more harm to our own careers as artists than we might do to our audiences' mental terrain. Audiences don't easily forgive being taken as suckers, being put down, or being treated with condescension. They give up quite a bit of control to the performer out of trust, and that trust is easily broken and hard to repair. A lot of people's distrust and discomfort with magic come from early experiences with performers who were careless of the trust given to them. Look at what happened to Blaine after his first special. He really bactracked on the shaman bit quickly after being exposed and pilloried for it. Audiences don't like being taken for fools. To make people believe something that isn't true isn't in my book entertainment, and the audiences will certainly let you know if they "feel" you have operated unfairly with them. I think the question really should be what is my artistic relationship to the audience. Am I attempting to leave them in intellectual error, or excite their critical and creative faculties? I am not one to say that there aren't artistic justifications for charlatanry, or that commercial success cannot come from it. If I choose charlatanry as an artistic goal, then what are the risks? As an artist, if I manage to convince an audience that I have real powers, is that truly an expression of the self, or of reality, or is it some kind of mental aggression--a form of propaganda. Is charlatanry ever art? Or is it always an attempt to take some kind of advantage over others? |
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Michael Kamen Inner circle Oakland, CA 1315 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-06-13 12:40, clarissa35f wrote: I am not sure if that argument is twisted, and actually, it may not be. But inductively, one can point to occasions where this or that untoward event may have occurred and conclude that there is a "high" risk of such a thing, leading to ethical choices going forward to avoid that risk. That is not twisted, just conclusions based on a small sample. We know that car accidents are a possibility but still we drive. We do however drive carefully. We drive in such a way as to avoid accidents because the disruption to our lives of an accident is simply not worth the ecstatic stupidity of driving foolishly. In the case of supernatural events, it is a fact that no one to date has proved they do not exist. This nuance, along with the comforting hope (or for others, discomfiting fear) is enough to make the prospect a truly viable explanation, when no other explanation seems possible. You do not have magic, from my observation and experience leading to my personal opinion about this, unless the effect is framed such that an easy slide into a supernatural explanation is strictly not allowed. Its a cheap and easy way off the horns of the dilemma, and there is no humor in it at all.
Michael Kamen
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
In the case of supernatural events, it is a fact that no one to date has proved they do not exist. This nuance, along with the comforting hope (or for others, discomfiting fear) is enough to make the prospect a truly viable explanation, when no other explanation seems possible. There's you twisted logic in action. No one to date has proved or even verified they exist by being able to re-create the reported "supernatural" experiences - however - that in no way invalidates the subjective experience of the person making the report**. Untwisted it might be more simple to say that by definition all we can experience is natural and some of what is natural is not so well understood. Anyway there's an example of how we coddle twisted logic in some cases. **At least till we have much better fMRI type tools and can compare internal brain activity patterns in real-time and compare them to known activity patterns, etc..
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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