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Jaz Inner circle NJ, U.S. 6111 Posts |
I see routines like 'Dice Stacking' and 'Flight Of The Paper Balls' and wonder how these are magic.
To me 'Dice Stacking' for the most part is close up juggling and 'Flight Of The Paper Balls' may be magic to one person but is actually a joke on them that's shared with the audience. Are there any tricks like this that you don't feel are magic? |
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Michael Kamen Inner circle Oakland, CA 1315 Posts |
I see these things as (potentially and hopefully) pleasing embellishments to a magic act that support a false premise such as: the effect is accomplished by deftness of hand or jugglery. The wonder, I think, lies in the spectator's experience (at the right moment) that an impossible event has occured that no deftness of hand or jugglery could account for, yet there is no other explanation.
Michael Kamen
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts |
Jaz, I have to disagree but I think it comes from a fundimental way I look at stuff. Let me explain.
I don't think of ANYTHING I do as "magic" per se. What I mean is I create a "magical experience" and all the things I do from the lines I use, to the tricks and everything to do with the way it is presented creates this sort of environment where the "magic" happens. Are those spacific tricks "magic"? Who is to say? Do they help to create an environment in which people have a "magical experience"? Absolutly 100% without doubt and beyond question yes they do. (oddly enough you pick 2 things I use LOL) Mind you I have several changes which happen in the die stack so it is "magical" by your definition anyhow. Also I vanish part of the Paper Balls with a TT so there IS magic in the routine as you seem to want to define it. I think the "experience" is what I am selling more than the trick. I hope this little rant makes some sense. I don't reduce what I do to just the sum of the tricks.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Jaz Inner circle NJ, U.S. 6111 Posts |
Years ago I watched Jim Zee stack dice and while I found it very entertaining, I realized the skill involved and didn't see the magic.
With the paper balls, and even when the assistants got a good laugh afterwards, I just felt I was possibly making a fool of my assistant. I can see where the two posters above are coming from and am glad you guys have found ways thru give a magical experience using these routines. I've done both and they're fun to do and fun to watch. |
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erlandish Inner circle Vancouver, Canada 1254 Posts |
These things (and others) have a weird distinction as being non-magical pieces that really don't belong anywhere except in a magic act. Who else would do dice stacking? Who else would do Paper Balls Over The Head?
Billy McComb made the intriguing argument that an audience can only absorb one really strong piece of magic in an act. If this is true, then even these supposedly non-magical pieces can find a useful part in an act simply by focusing on other theatrical goals (character development, suspense, comedy, etc.). There's nothing magical in Ricky Jay's Cards As Weapons routine in the 52 Assistants, but it still serves an important aim, helping establish the guy as having complete mastery over cards, providing a nice touch of comedy, and even a certain amount of suspense in the final penetration. Take a look at a bunch of stuff in the Amazing Jonathan's repertoire, and there's a whole lot of comedy and not much magic. The show would still suffer if they were taken out, though. There's nothing really magical about stunts such as Houdini's straightjacket escape or Blaine's underwater breathing, but they can still serve the show, particularly if the aim of the show is something bigger than just "Give them magic." |
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
And you think controlling a card is any different? The magic isn't in the effect.
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
A man walked up and handed me a coin, as I looked at it, it slowly dissolved into nothingness. I stared in disbelief for several seconds.
When I looked up, he was gone. Tell me that the magic is not in the effect. |
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john scot Special user brighton, uk 585 Posts |
Is Jack not just simply saying that which Al Goshman said?
'The magic is you.' John |
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erlandish Inner circle Vancouver, Canada 1254 Posts |
I'm willing to bet that Goshman's quote isn't meant to be taken so literally that I can substitute magic for ukelele cover tunes and still call myself a magician. Magic in the "impossible things happening" sense has to fit in there somewhere.
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Clark Special user 957 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-05-19 13:33, Whit Haydn wrote: Thank you.
“The key to creativity is in knowing how to hide your sources.”
Albert Einstein |
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Jaz Inner circle NJ, U.S. 6111 Posts |
Thanks to all of you.
Drew, Depending on the effects I do think that a good many card effects, while entertaining, are seen as manipulation or control over the cards if you will. erlandish, I can see your point about these effects fitting into some acts. The Paper Balls is a funny gag that may not be part of any act but just a funny thing to do at a party. I don't mind showing skill by dice stacking or playing a joke on someone by tossing paper balls. However, the tricks are obvious and any one can go home and try to do these tricks. Not the case with magic. |
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Casey Magic Regular user North Carolina 177 Posts |
When has magic not been 'effect' driven?
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erlandish Inner circle Vancouver, Canada 1254 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-05-19 16:02, Jaz wrote: Just for clarification's sake... Quote:
The Paper Balls is a funny gag that may not be part of any act but just a funny thing to do at a party. My point was that Paper Balls Over The Head actually can be a part of a magic act. Quote:
I don't mind showing skill by dice stacking or playing a joke on someone by tossing paper balls. However, the tricks are obvious and any one can go home and try to do these tricks. That might be true. They might also be able to go try to wear clothes the way we do, or use the same jokes that we do, but that doesn't mean we should show up to perform naked and humourless. |
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Jaz Inner circle NJ, U.S. 6111 Posts |
No need to clarify E, I got your point and said, "I can see your point about these effects fitting into some acts."
I wrote: Quote:
I don't mind showing skill by dice stacking or playing a joke on someone by tossing paper balls. However, the tricks are obvious and any one can go home and try to do these tricks. erlandish replied: Quote:
That might be true. They might also be able to go try to wear clothes the way we do, or use the same jokes that we do, but that doesn't mean we should show up to perform naked and humourless. What? There's nothing impossible or mysterious about wearing clothes the way we do, or using the same jokes. They're there in the open. I guess all I'm saying is that I see nothing impossible or mysterious about the routines I mentioned. |
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gaddy Inner circle Agent of Chaos 3528 Posts |
I don't find the whole card juggling movement to be magical at all. Juggling 5 balls is infinitely more an exhibition of manual dexterity than any number of trick deck cuts.
On the other hand, if people like it, I see no reason that it cannot fall under the umbrella of "magic", just like traditional juggling can and does!
*due to the editorial policies here, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
A magician usually has to perform for some time, and Billy McComb always said you can only really "amaze them" once in a performance. The rest of the show can have all sorts of entertaining diversions in it. I think that many skill sets such as vent, juggling, comedy, dice stacking, flourishes, etc., can enhance a magic performance and add to the overall impact--if it is skillful and expertly done.
I usually mix in a street swindle demo (monte/shells/fast and loose) in my magic act, and it is a nice change of pace. The audience can relax for a bit and play something that is for them a little more comfortable than magic for a moment. |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5930 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-05-19 13:33, Whit Haydn wrote: That's not magic, that's just your stimulus check. |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
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Clark Special user 957 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-05-20 02:30, Tom Cutts wrote: classic.
“The key to creativity is in knowing how to hide your sources.”
Albert Einstein |
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-05-19 15:28, johnscot777 wrote: Yes, I very much am. There are people in this forum who very much disagree with Al and me. Sadly, some of those who disagree perform like they agree, but still disagree. More sadly, others perform like they agree. All effects are just "juggling" till you make them something else. No effect that you make "magic" is "juggling", even if that effect happens to be the act of throwing and catching multiple objects in the air. That is because the "effect" isn't what is "magic". "What's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." |
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