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dooblehorn
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Pittsburg, CA
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I was just on a magic vendors site, and one of the trick descriptions said you're safe buying this trick because it requires a sleight and those lazy hobbyists won't want to bother...wish I could remember which site it was, as I sure don't want to give them any business of mine.
Yes, I am more of a hobbyist, but it sure is not very professional or nice thing to say...anyway, it really bothered me, thanks for letting me get that off my chest.

ok, I feel better now ;-)
BCS
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Dooblehorn,
Don't take it to heart... unless you are a lazy hobbyists.
Good luck to you.
Thanks,
Bruce
The Amazing Noobini
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Oslo, Norway
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Haha. I am the world's laziest hobbyist. Which is why I know so many sleight of hand moves and so few actual rehearsed magic tricks. It's easy to tinker with cards and coins and whatnot while watching TV. Motor skills arrive quickly.

I'm sure the site didn't really mean that in a serious way. Just a funny(ish) way of presenting an item for sale at the website probably. As BCS says... don't take it to heart. I thought it was a kind of fun description of an item.
"Talk about melodrama... and being born in the wrong part of the world." (Raf Robert)
"You, my friend, have a lot to learn." (S. Youell)
"Nonsensical Raving of a lunatic mind..." (Larry)
gaddy
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Agent of Chaos
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Lazy doesn't even begin to describe me! One (maybe 2!) of the deadly sins was named after me! And yet I continue to "hobby about" with magic -and even charge money for my entertainments, too!
*due to The Magic Cafe's editorial policies, words on this site attributed to me cannot necessarily be held to be my own.*
clarissa35f
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While they may or may not have meant it, I'd like to know who they are, since I do not wish to shop there. I'm a hobbyist. And I practice my sleights, as often as I can. While I will not say I practice 4 hours a day, day in day out. I do not go " all Gimmicky" as some people believe of us.

Something that goes along with this mentality. I was looking for reviews of Strong Magic By Darwin Ortiz. And one of them was on Ellusionist. Well one of the members of "Team Ellusionist" was going on about how great it was and what great benefits you can gain from it... and in the middle he said more or less...

This book is not for the hobbyist that wants to perform a trick and get a giggle.
Yes, he said... get a giggle. I do not know how many pros see hobbyists this way, I would hope they don't since I admire the pros. And respect them. It seems that the team Ellusionists look down or condescend... anyway wanted to share my experience.
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous>
"There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn>
dooblehorn
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Haha, you guys are great...ok, maybe I was taking it too seriously! Thanks for the laughs! I needed that today Smile

Clarissa, I'm totally agreeing with you, as well...pm'ing you
michaelmagicart
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Quote:
On 2008-05-21 20:07, clarissa35f wrote:
While they may or may not have meant it, I'd like to know who they are, since I do not wish to shop there. I'm a hobbyist. And I practice my sleights, as often as I can. While I will not say I practice 4 hours a day, day in day out. I do not go " all Gimmicky" as some people believe of us.

Something that goes along with this mentality. I was looking for reviews of Strong Magic By Darwin Ortiz. And one of them was on Ellusionist. Well one of the members of "Team Ellusionist" was going on about how great it was and what great benefits you can gain from it... and in the middle he said more or less...

This book is not for the hobbyist that wants to perform a trick and get a giggle.
Yes, he said... get a giggle. I do not know how many pros see hobbyists this way, I would hope they don't since I admire the pros. And respect them. It seems that the team Ellusionists look down or condescend... anyway wanted to share my experience.


I agree with you clarissa35f. If that was what was said, that has to be the dumbest statement ever made by a Magic Dealer, and he needs to go back to business school. The truth of the matter is that Magic Dealer's rely on the novice, amateur, hobbyist and the next warm body that walks in the door to make a living. If they relied solely on professional’s they might last until the next rent payment came due. Keep an eye on that book if your are interested in it though as it will probably end up marked down and you can get a h**l of a deal on it. I am laughing so hard it is hard to type, just thinking about how stupid a statement and a surefire way to discourage anyone from buying the book.
airship
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In my day, I have driven
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I'm too lazy to respond to this post...
'The central secret of conjuring is a manipulation of interest.' - Henry Hay
marty.sasaki
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You know there is a bit of truth in the original statement though. I often tell people something similar, if you want to do something that no-one else is doing, get the effect from a book. A large part of the magic community doesn't read books.
Marty Sasaki
Arlington, Massachusetts, USA

Standard disclaimer: I'm just a hobbyist who enjoys occasionally mystifying friends and family, so my opinions should be viewed with this in mind.
irossall
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Quote:
On 2008-05-22 11:24, marty.sasaki wrote:
If you want to do something that no-one else is doing, get the effect from a book. A large part of the magic community doesn't read books.


I disagree with most of your statements.
If you want to do something really different, make up your own effects/routine. Don't just get someone else's effect unless you want to use it as a template to build upon to make it your own.
I believe that most members of the Magic community do read books. Someone that just does a couple of "tricks" and knows a bunch of secrets and really only does tricks to showoff rather than entertain is not a member of the Magic community (not in my mind anyway).
My opinion is one who takes the time to study the history of Magic and Magician's and actually thinks about Magic more than a couple of times a year is a member of the Magic community.
All who come to the Café to learn and share are members of the community.
Those lurkers just looking to find out how things are done are not members.
Just my honest opinion.
Iven Smile
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clarissa35f
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* giggles* I can't go a few hours without grabbing my deck. or a Poker chip... or some rope... or whatever. The magic bug has bit me hard. The more I read the forums the more I think about magic, the more time I spend reading about magic, practicing magic. I've gotten to the point where I hardly read any other fiction or non-fiction unless it's magic related.

I understand what you mean about members of our community. How does any member of the magic community go 6 months without thinking about magic???
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous>
"There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn>
themagiciansapprentice
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I'm the same. In fact the other day I had to lock my kids show trunk to stop me from over-practising. (Shows next Monday and Thursday, then the following Thursday, Friday and Saturday.)

So of course I went to the books, got out some old cards, some coins from my pocket and practised different tricks.
Have wand will travel! Performing children's magic in the UK for Winter 2014 and Spring 2015.
marty.sasaki
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Quote:
On 2008-05-22 23:35, irossall wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-05-22 11:24, marty.sasaki wrote:
If you want to do something that no-one else is doing, get the effect from a book. A large part of the magic community doesn't read books.


I disagree with most of your statements.
If you want to do something really different, make up your own effects/routine. Don't just get someone else's effect unless you want to use it as a template to build upon to make it your own.
I believe that most members of the Magic community do read books. Someone that just does a couple of "tricks" and knows a bunch of secrets and really only does tricks to showoff rather than entertain is not a member of the Magic community (not in my mind anyway).
My opinion is one who takes the time to study the history of Magic and Magician's and actually thinks about Magic more than a couple of times a year is a member of the Magic community.
All who come to the Café to learn and share are members of the community.
Those lurkers just looking to find out how things are done are not members.
Just my honest opinion.
Iven Smile


I've attended many lectures and informal teach-ins and demonstrations where the presenter has done something that has fooled all the folks in the room, and then revealed that the source was a classic book that most of the folks in the room had on their bookshelves.

I've also hung out in several local magic shops (I'm lucky that there are shops within driving distance, and even on within walking distance). They have lots of books, but most folks buy individual tricks and DVD's. I've done a bit of semi-serious reading and have made recommendations which most folks ignore. This could be my personality though.

I based my comments on these sorts of experiences.

On a different note...

I wonder why magic hasn't become more like music? There isn't any problem with someone performing someone else's music (licensing and royalties aside). Folks have made careers on performing other people's music. Not everyone is a composer. Some folks have a mixture of their own and other's music.

Contrast this to magic. Everyone is urged to create their own magic. You are often judged by your originality, so you can do a completely entertaining routine that was created by someone else, and be considered to be a poor magician. Why not do Vernon's Symphony of the Rings, or Gazzo's cups and balls exactly as it is performed by the originators with a little bit of change to suit yourself? Of course the source would be attributed, if required (a performance to lay audiences would almost always include attribution, magicians might not need this since the effect might be well known).
Marty Sasaki
Arlington, Massachusetts, USA

Standard disclaimer: I'm just a hobbyist who enjoys occasionally mystifying friends and family, so my opinions should be viewed with this in mind.
themagiciansapprentice
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Firstly, I'm still pretty new to magic and blogging but on the dvds I've watched, but one thing I still find strange is how US Magicians always seem to state the name of a tricks originator - as though it was required like a barcode, ISBN or to name a musical composer. I find it breaks up a performance. If I'm singing or playing an instrument the piece is recognised as being written by some-one else anyway. So why is magic perceived as being different?

Fair enough if I'm trying to pass off the effect on e-bay as my own ... but normally haven't I already paid to use the effect in most cases ??? And today I've found two different square to cross tricks on the net. If I make my own out of a bathroom sponge to whom do I attribute the effect??
Have wand will travel! Performing children's magic in the UK for Winter 2014 and Spring 2015.
fxdude
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Hollywood
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When I first started in magic I actually was a huge lazy hobbyist. I would only work with gimmicked/gaffed coins, cards, and props that were pretty close to self working and didn't take much sleight of hand. I am just now getting my sleights down and starting to work with a normal deck more. I don't regret any of it though and don't look down on it. I was still blowing people's minds and giving great entertainment. Most of the people I performed for thought I was working with normal stuff anyways.
clarissa35f
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Hmmm.. I think it depends. When I am performing card effects, I never identify the effects in question.

Firstly I am supposed to be performing magic. In my mind calling something " Twisting the Aces" in front of lay people detracts from that. So I Introduce it by saying.." Here is the first thing I learned when I started learning Card magic...how to turn a card over....between two cards.." Intriguing, and... it's magical.

Secondly, People if they are curious will try to look it up on Youtube. So since I don't tell them the name, and they may not know it themselves they do not know what to look up.

Now when discussing effects with other magicians, speaking for myself I identify the creator for various reasons even if it might be well known. One is clarity. What if someone else also created an effect with a similar name? The other is Homage, acknowledging the creator.

I really do not understand how this does not take place in say Classical music, whenever I go to the Philharmonic everyone gets a program explaining what pieces will be performed. And the announcer always says.." Tonight so and so will be conducting so and so Etude in B flat minor.. blasi blasi..."

Popular songs are different. More often than not people know who composed them or who first made them popular. I think part of the reason we stress who the creator is, is mainly giving credit where it is due. I do not see why this is a bad thing.
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous>
"There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn>
marty.sasaki
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I said things badly. I didn't mean that you should attribute during the performance, perhaps in a program or if someone asks you later.

My main point is why creating your own routine considered superior to doing someone else's routine?
Marty Sasaki
Arlington, Massachusetts, USA

Standard disclaimer: I'm just a hobbyist who enjoys occasionally mystifying friends and family, so my opinions should be viewed with this in mind.
clarissa35f
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I think part of it is that in my opinion magic is more a presentation of the performer, than the performance, If that makes any sense. I know what I am trying to say just not exactly how to get it across.

I think magic is something that expresses a lot about the magician if the magician lets it. When a magician delivers someone else's routine untouched we see little of who he is, and a lot of the creator of the routine. I think there is more potential in magic for the performer to express him or herself artistically than say in Music, unless every musician is out there composing their own music.

Magicians have choice of wardrobe, persona, how they speak, how they walk, how they move...Look at David Copperfield, then look at Max Maven, look at Jeff McBride, look at Criss Angel.

I just think that once a magician gets enough moves under his or her bonnet so to speak they can use them as building blocks to create their own routines and should. It may not be easy, but the potential is there, for everyone to craft their own way to express the art. I think magic lends itself more to self expression than say...music. And since it is about self expression I think when one creates their own routine that expresses who they are more...then when they present someone else's.
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous>
"There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn>
themagiciansapprentice
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I think we all adapt tricks to suit ourselves rather than mimicing other magicians. One problem I am finding at the moment, is that I'm watching videos on Magic Company websites,buying their tricks, then I seem to mimic the performances I've seen. I'm having to work hard to stop this using critical friends and videoing my routines.

When I did my first video I called it "The magic change bag". My mentor imeediately told us to change the name to the effect "rainbow silk" rather than the equipment/gimmick. Now I just do the trick with no name or attribution.
Have wand will travel! Performing children's magic in the UK for Winter 2014 and Spring 2015.
skillzilla
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Bill Malone comes to mind, he doesn't seem to have a lot of original stuff. he just adds a little presentation to the existing tricks
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