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vinsmagic
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Eternal Order
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INFLATION..............is the key word take a look at gas when was a kid 17 cents
a gallon.
Come check out my magic.

http://www.vinnymarini.com
Steven Youell
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Quote:
On 2008-05-25 19:46, vinsmagic wrote:
INFLATION..............is the key word take a look at gas when was a kid 17 cents
a gallon.


Uh.. Vinny? All the prices listed are current. Inflation has nothing to do with it.

Steven Youell
vinsmagic
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Eternal Order
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Yes but these were not the prices some 20 thirty years ago..
Iam not talking about his book only prices....
Steve I agree with you about his book, but everyone has a right to and make a living...
Come check out my magic.

http://www.vinnymarini.com
Steven Youell
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Quote:
On 2008-05-25 12:48, Tim David wrote:

I still stand by what I actually DID say in the ebook and many of you are proving my point.

I'm not calling anyone here a "Nerd" magician, and I'm sorry for those who identify themselves as such.


Tim, please explain what you mean by "many of you are proving my point". What point?

Also, if you're not calling anyone here (The Café) a nerd magician, then could you please tell us exactly WHO this comment refers to?

I'd also like you to defend your decision to put the word "***bag" on your website. It's apparent that you do not understand what that word represents.

And if it's not too much, can you explain exactly what scientific evidence you have that proves the effects you selected have a higher impact than any other effect?

Making such a claim over the internet without proof constitutes fraud.

Steven Youell
jfquackenbush
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Out here on the desert
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Steve, re: "Out of this World" I have in my possession an original Curry mimeograph distribution of out of this world, and it does indeed start with the seven cards the way apparently this version describes. From there it moves to a false overhand and then the version that I have lists a number of subtleties and variations.

I believe that the Magic Shop at the PIke Place Market still has the envelope with the Curry write up in stock, so you may want to pick up a copy when you're next in Seattle as a sort of collectors item/piece of history.
Mr. Quackenbush believes that there is no such thing as a good magic trick.
Steven Youell
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Thanks-- I was in doubt which is why I wrote what I did.

I've always started FASDIU.

Steven Youell
Tim David
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Micky: "No longer IN BED with David Castle" ????

Is that your idea of admitting a mistake? Way to take the high road, buddy.

Mandarin: I DO believe that beginners AND pros should download the free sample...there are no tricks in the sample, but it details the ideas behind why I chose to include the tricks that I did.

Many pros choose to believe myths about card magic that aren't true. The free sample speaks to that...the rest of the book is just the effects. Any real-world working pro would read the free sample and immediately understand whether or not the book is for them. That is precisely the reason WHY I am giving away a free sample.

Steve: Getting a refund doesn't mean that you have to give up your review. You can keep your review...everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Claiming my book is a waste of money and then refusing a refund is a bit like playing the martyr, don't you think? It sounds like you just want to pay 17 bucks for the right to complain.

For the record, I never want to rip people off. If they don't get value, then I don't want their money. Steve...that's the real reason I've offered you the refund. I'm NOT refunding you as an attempt to "keep you quiet".

If I could refund you manually I would. In fact, if you don't process the refund by tomorrow, then I'll just PayPal you $17...If you refuse that, I'll figure something out. Maybe you have a favorite charity I could donate $17 to???

Please accept it without feeling obligated to stop bashing me.
Go spread some wonder

http://www.TimDavidMagic.com
Tim David
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Quote:
On 2008-05-25 15:40, Steven Youell wrote:
Saying someting is for beginners does not give you the license to lie or give sub-standard teaching on sub-standard material.


Lie? You claim I'm lying now?

As for sub-standard material...I think we all agree the majority of the tricks I teach (the first 9 tricks) are CLASSICS. Are you calling tricks like "Out of This World" sub-standard???

Sub-standard teaching??? That's your opinion. It is certainly a subjective issue and therefore not even worth debating.
Go spread some wonder

http://www.TimDavidMagic.com
kammagic
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Quote:
On 2008-05-25 18:08, mandarin wrote:
Directly from an email I received, it doesn't look like "just for beginners" to me...

"Beginner card magician or advanced card pro,
it doesn't matter...Download the sample now
at:"

Jim


Easy effects can be worth while to beginners and pros is what I think he is saying. If all the effects are difficult then his statement is incorrect. If all the effects are easy then his statement is correct. So it certainly sounds like the effects are easy.
MickeyPainless
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***Micky: "No longer IN BED with David Castle"***

It's a business slang that (as I meant it) had no bad intent but if you'd like to get butt hurt over it, you may! It could also be read to imply that if you lay with dogs, you may get fleas and as I recall you needed a healthy bath after your dealings with Castle.

***Is that your idea of admitting a mistake? Way to take the high road, buddy.***

My stating that I stand corrected in open forum to an issue you had with me in private sure seems like a gracious apology to me. I could have very easily ignored your message or told you to go fly a kite!
Tim David
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EVERYONE:

I appreciate the private message and emails of encouragement I've received. I won't call anyone out, but it would be nice to hear some of you say what you said....publicly in this thread.

It seems that more people share my viewpoint on card magic (and magic in general....but more on that later), but I'm the only one saying anything.

Steve:

It seems we will end up "agreeing to disagree" on just about everything. Usually this can be done agreeably, and I hope we can muster some sense of maturity out of this situation, but it certainly did start out on the wrong foot, don't you think?

I'll address a few of your questions, and then I think I'll have to get on with my life. Reviews and constructive criticism are one thing...but I get the feeling that this isn't meant to be helpful in any way.

Know also that if there are any serious questions about me or my stuff, then I'm always around to answer them. I do read everything.

WHAT IS A NERD MAGICIAN?

Actually Steve, here is a quote from one of your posts in an unrelated thread...

"The idea that magicians are bad audiences is a myth. Magicians are a _different_ audience.

But don't bust out the sponge balls and then blame a lackluster response on them or expect them to react the same way a lay audience would."


I think we can all agree with the above quote...

But isn't the reverse also true?

A nerd magician is someone who would "bust out" a routine INTENDED FOR MAGICIANS on a lay audience.

Who knows, perhaps a better term might be "snob magician".

This is the type of magician who would deny his spectators the AWESOME impact of the Invisible Deck simply because he/she considers it "cheating" because it requires using a gimmicked deck.

Or worse, they would attempt (successful or not) some convoluted method of the Invisible Deck effect using a regular deck and in doing so, diminish the simplicity and beauty of the effect.

A nerd magician HATES David Blaine because of the fact that David became successful doing "simple tricks".

A nerd magician rarely or never performs for real, lay audiences.

A nerd magician is a perfectionist to a fault.

A nerd magician thinks he/she is TOO GOOD to perform simple card tricks (regardless of how much impact they have on the spectators).

A nerd magician puts his/her own needs FIRST when creating a magic act.

I could go on, but I think the explanation in the free sample of the book is pretty clear.

WHAT IS THE "SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE"?

This refers to my own process of determining which card tricks have the most "impact" based on thousands of trick/routine performances in front of real people.

For years I recorded every show and instead of watching myself, I watched the audience.

Averaging close to 300 shows a year means that I've recorded a LOT of trick performances.

For 10-15 shows, I would work in a new trick/routine ("The experiment") and compare it to the current WORST trick/routine ("The control"). If the audience liked it better...then I had a new control.

I never did any scientific testing in a classroom or laboratory. That would defeat the purpose. All my tests were done in front of REAL AUDIENCES.
Go spread some wonder

http://www.TimDavidMagic.com
Amiable
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Quote:
On 2008-05-25 15:38, Chris SD wrote:
In b4 sh*tstorm.


No way! How did you know there would be a storm in 2 days?! Smile
Tim David
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Mickey: Thanks for the public apology, I should have given you credit for that.

I did read it as a little bit "back-handed", but since it is sometimes hard to infer intended meaning and connotation through the words on a screen, I'm happy to give you the benefit of the doubt on this one.
Go spread some wonder

http://www.TimDavidMagic.com
Steven Youell
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Quote:
On 2008-05-25 23:34, Tim David wrote:
Lie? You claim I'm lying now?


Yes, I am.

Steven Youell
Amiable
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A more serious note. I certainly agree that a more technically demanding trick is not necessarily a higher-impact trick (this applies to both magis and layperson - see a Svengali thread). However, purchasing your manuscript, Tim, is not in the best interests of a new magi; there are sources with more (and depending on who you ask, better) material that fits the "high-impact self-workers" mode - and cheaper. See the list that Steve Y listed (to which I'll add Giobbi's Card College Light, though that is not cheaper). They often also provide a more rounded view which helps the new magi to progress beyond material in the book, if they becomes so inclined.

The main ethical argument that I observe (which has so far gone unspoken) is that you are acutely aware that there are better, more economical sources available to your audience; of your free will, you chose to hide that information in order to (mis)lead them into buying what you're selling.

The rest - "scientific evidence", "target audience", hyperbole - are just footnote to this ethical concern.
Steven Youell
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Quote:
On 2008-05-26 00:18, Tim David wrote:

A nerd magician is someone who would "bust out" a routine INTENDED FOR MAGICIANS on a lay audience. Who knows, perhaps a better term might be "snob magician".


I wouldn't know, I'm not the one who made up the term. But after reading your definition, I'm glad I don't fit the definition. I've done Self-Working tricks for years in my act and even fooled Mike Skinner with a Svengali Deck.

Quote:
On 2008-05-26 00:18, Tim David wrote:
I never did any scientific testing in a classroom or laboratory. That would defeat the purpose. All my tests were done in front of REAL AUDIENCES.


What you're saying here is that you have no organized data, no double-blind scientifc studies and no real substantial scientific evidence. This means that making the statement "scientifically proven" is fraudulent. That's not my definition, that's the definition of the FTC, who monitors fradulent claims on the internet.

It's funny that you mention the effects you teach are all classics. That means they should be easy to reference. But you didn't. You were probably too busy figuring out how to hoodwink people into buying something that probably took an afternoon to write.

Have fun defrauding the public.

Steven Youell
Steven Youell
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Quote:
On 2008-05-26 00:40, Amiable wrote:

The main ethical argument that I observe (which has so far gone unspoken) is that you are acutely aware that there are better, more economical sources available to your audience; of your free will, you chose to hide that information in order to (mis)lead them into buying what you're selling.


EXACTLY!

Steven Youell
kammagic
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Quote:
On 2008-05-26 00:18, Tim David wrote:
EVERYONE:

I appreciate the private message and emails of encouragement I've received. I won't call anyone out, but it would be nice to hear some of you say what you said....publicly in this thread.

It seems that more people share my viewpoint on card magic (and magic in general....but more on that later), but I'm the only one saying anything.

Steve:

It seems we will end up "agreeing to disagree" on just about everything. Usually this can be done agreeably, and I hope we can muster some sense of maturity out of this situation, but it certainly did start out on the wrong foot, don't you think?

I'll address a few of your questions, and then I think I'll have to get on with my life. Reviews and constructive criticism are one thing...but I get the feeling that this isn't meant to be helpful in any way.

Know also that if there are any serious questions about me or my stuff, then I'm always around to answer them. I do read everything.

WHAT IS A NERD MAGICIAN?

Actually Steve, here is a quote from one of your posts in an unrelated thread...

"The idea that magicians are bad audiences is a myth. Magicians are a _different_ audience.

But don't bust out the sponge balls and then blame a lackluster response on them or expect them to react the same way a lay audience would."


I think we can all agree with the above quote...

But isn't the reverse also true?

A nerd magician is someone who would "bust out" a routine INTENDED FOR MAGICIANS on a lay audience.

Who knows, perhaps a better term might be "snob magician".

This is the type of magician who would deny his spectators the AWESOME impact of the Invisible Deck simply because he/she considers it "cheating" because it requires using a gimmicked deck.

Or worse, they would attempt (successful or not) some convoluted method of the Invisible Deck effect using a regular deck and in doing so, diminish the simplicity and beauty of the effect.

A nerd magician HATES David Blaine because of the fact that David became successful doing "simple tricks".

A nerd magician rarely or never performs for real, lay audiences.

A nerd magician is a perfectionist to a fault.

A nerd magician thinks he/she is TOO GOOD to perform simple card tricks (regardless of how much impact they have on the spectators).

A nerd magician puts his/her own needs FIRST when creating a magic act.

I could go on, but I think the explanation in the free sample of the book is pretty clear.

WHAT IS THE "SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE"?

This refers to my own process of determining which card tricks have the most "impact" based on thousands of trick/routine performances in front of real people.

For years I recorded every show and instead of watching myself, I watched the audience.

Averaging close to 300 shows a year means that I've recorded a LOT of trick performances.

For 10-15 shows, I would work in a new trick/routine ("The experiment") and compare it to the current WORST trick/routine ("The control"). If the audience liked it better...then I had a new control.

I never did any scientific testing in a classroom or laboratory. That would defeat the purpose. All my tests were done in front of REAL AUDIENCES.


Bravo! Your nerd magician description is right on the money.
Tim David
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Amiable: My book fills a niche.

In that niche, my book is the best option for the student.

(Remember, I'm NEVER out to rip anyone off and if I did believe that my book was junk and that nobody would receive value from it, then I WOULDN'T SELL IT. A long-term happy customer is much more satisfying to me than a quick buck.)

The comments and stories from my actual customers tell me that the vast majority of people in that niche LOVE my stuff.

Here is the "niche" my book was created for:

- Laymen or raw beginner magicians who want to learn a few "high-impact" card tricks QUICKLY to impress their family or friends.

(Tricks must be easy to do, require no gimmicks, little or no set-up, explained in plain English with no magical jargon, no lengthy explanations that are full of fluff or filler, and the results from those tricks must be encouraging for the "newbie".)

My advertising speaks to that niche. I'm not trying to make this book out to be something that it's not.
Go spread some wonder

http://www.TimDavidMagic.com
Steven Youell
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By the way, Tim. You use the word ****bag on your site.

Did you know that's a euphemism for a used condom?

Is that the type of image you want to have?

Steven Youell
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