|
|
|
|||
| Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3~4 [Next] | ||||||||||
Samuel Catoe Inner circle South Carolina 1258 Posts 
|
Sounds fairly accurate to me John.
Author of Illusions of Influence, a treatise on Equivoque.
PM me for details and availability. |
|||||||||
John Nesbit Inner circle United States 1423 Posts
|
Thank you Samuel. Your post also are filled with truth and integrity.
|
|||||||||
Thomas Kwon Veteran user 333 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2008-05-27 13:10, John Nesbit wrote: wait wait wait... Jim C? |
|||||||||
|
John Nesbit Inner circle United States 1423 Posts
|
How well do you know Jim Callahan ?
|
|||||||||
|
NJJ Inner circle 6437 Posts
|
Thanks again to those who managed to stay on topic. I agree that we are all driven by our own sense of ethics on this question. There are so many ethical topics (both in magic and out) out there that people disagree on but the key to understanding is open, friendly, unabusive dialogue.
My concerns boil down to this question... Is it ok for someone who is NOT performing a theatrical show to use the techniques of mentalists to FAKE psychic power? E.g. Using cold reading in a private numerology reading to make numerology seem more accurate. PS - contratary to what it may seem, I love having my mind changed on any subject and welcome any good argument! |
|||||||||
|
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27470 Posts
|
Nicholas, that position may well be exactly backwards - why should it be okay to use the necessary trickery of another religion to merely amuse - beyond the simple disrespect of that faith? Those talking statues and moving doors of old in temples and the images projected (via curved mirrors) were part and parcel of the religions of people.
I'm not going to take ANY side about which faith is grounded in "Truth" but instead ask whether the methods used by those who manage oracles in the past are truly fodder for mockery.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
|||||||||
Destiny Inner circle 1429 Posts
|
Quote:
Is it ok for someone who is NOT performing a theatrical show to use the techniques of mentalists to FAKE psychic power? But cold reading is not a magic trick - cold reading is real - that is why it is so powerful. An accomplished cold reader has either studied very hard, is incredibly intuitive, or both. The cold reader is telling the truth. What is the subtext of coldreading? I can see things about you and your life others do not see. That is true. (Unless we are discussing the magician who defines 'you've got a scar on your left knee and have been too busy to get a haircut' as cold reading) And... further to what Jonathan said, the basic techniques of mentalism were not borrowed by psychics - it's the other way round. Mentalism had it's start in showmen appropriating techniques from psychics. Destiny |
|||||||||
|
NJJ Inner circle 6437 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2008-05-29 21:21, Jonathan Townsend wrote: That is an awesome idea! I love it! I myself owe a debt to the pickpockets and mountebanks who have hurt countless victims so I can certainly agree that mentalists owe a great deal to psychic frauds! I believe Jim C had a thread called "Have you thanked Uri" or something similar I guess my initial gut reaction is that I am highly suspect of any spiritual or religious belief that relies heavily on such deceptions. I am also wary of any spiritual faith that requires 'necessary trickery'! Quote:
But cold reading is not a magic trick - cold reading is real - that is why it is so powerful. An accomplished cold reader has either studied very hard, is incredibly intuitive, or both. The cold reader is telling the truth. What is the subtext of coldreading? I can see things about you and your life others do not see. That is true. (Unless we are discussing the magician who defines 'you've got a scar on your left knee and have been too busy to get a haircut' as cold reading) If a cold reader was entirely clear that they were using the psychological technique of cold reading then, of course, there would be no ethical dilemma. My concern arises from the practice of pretending the the reader has mystic or psychic powers. If somebody advertises themselves as a psychic, there is an assumption that they have a supernatural or spiritual power. But I do like your argument and I can see some merit in it...I will ponder this further. |
|||||||||
|
Experimentalist Veteran user 360 Posts
|
This is ultimately a philosophical question. It is possible to believe in "mystic powers" without believing in the supernatural.
|
|||||||||
|
NJJ Inner circle 6437 Posts
|
Of course - you could have a philosophical about a fake rolex. If it LOOKS reals, ACTS real and you don't know it's NOT real, does it matter? Have you been scammed?
|
|||||||||
|
stoneunhinged Inner circle 3068 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2008-05-29 21:21, Jonathan Townsend wrote: WHOA! Jon, that's just wonderful. Thanks. |
|||||||||
|
Experimentalist Veteran user 360 Posts
|
I believe that was a non sequitur Nick.
|
|||||||||
|
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27470 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2008-05-30 01:00, Nicholas J. Johnson wrote:... We can discuss how context and anchoring and presuppositions affect belief here BUT let's keep the faith side of things offline and away from this thread - as that's both religious and political.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
|||||||||
|
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27470 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2008-05-30 02:26, Nicholas J. Johnson wrote: If you bought one such believing it was a genuine factory/product rolex and sold later sold it to someone who later sold it to someone and years later found out it was a fake - what then?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
|||||||||
|
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27470 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2008-05-30 02:23, Experimentalist wrote: by this you mean whether there's a family in mystic (ct) by the name of powers?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
|||||||||
|
Experimentalist Veteran user 360 Posts
|
I mean that a mystical experience can be had by someone with no religious or otherwise supernatural beliefs.
I think that I have suceeded in providing genuine mystical experiences for others using E. Enriquez' Invisible Gemstones. |
|||||||||
|
Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27470 Posts
|
Quote:
On 2008-05-30 01:00, Nicholas J. Johnson wrote:...My concern arises from the practice of pretending the the reader has mystic or psychic powers. If somebody advertises themselves as a psychic, there is an assumption that they have a supernatural or spiritual power. It's for their own good so of course it's all justified. The ends have a way of justifying the means - as history is written by those who lived to see the end and posses the means.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
|
|||||||||
|
NJJ Inner circle 6437 Posts
|
Jonathan - Of course those who practice unethical behaviour will claim it is ethical. Here in Australia past governments lied to the Aboriginal people and removed child from their parents 'for their own good.' The current government just said sorry.
On your earlier idea regarding "why should it be okay to use the necessary trickery of another religion to merely amuse" I have two further points. One, whether the use of religion/faith/spiritual to entertain is okay or not is a point worth considering but is not the purpose of this thread. Second, while mentalists may have nicked fake psychics skills, this does not make the actions of fake psychics more acceptable. Just because magicians stole the topit from the pickpockets does not make it more ethical to steal. I am asking people on this thread to elaborate on their own ethical beliefs on this subject. Experimentalist - my 'rolex' example was not in reply to your post so would have no sense! Sorry for not being clearer! |
|||||||||
|
clarissa35f Veteran user 363 Posts
|
Hmmm... This is an interesting question. But I would like to point out one thing. How does one go about determining that someone's beliefs are insincere?
I am new to mentalism, am just getting into the study aspect, But the Ethics of it, are pretty interesting. My point is, If as Destiny says Cold reading can be used to determine actual things that someone has kept hidden, and the person doing the Cold reading, is unaware of Cold reading as a " method to fake... psychic Powers" But is in fact doing Cold readings on a subconscious level. If they sincerely believe that is psychic, would it be ethical for them to say.." This is fake." Just because the majority disbelieve? Here the problem as I see it is one of determining whether or not her beliefs are real and sincere. And as far as I know, the only way to determine that.... is to read her mind. Ironic.
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous> "There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn> |
|||||||||
|
Destiny Inner circle 1429 Posts
|
Clarissa,
I have come to see readers as either sincere or insincere rather than fake or real. I am a complete sceptic as far as anything psychic, religious, supernatural, paranormal and the like goes but not a sceptic of the 'I don't believe - therefore nor will you' school. There are members of the Café who I know to do non-theatrical, trickery-free readings and they are some of the most decent and intelligent people you would ever come across. I originally believed disclaimers to be necessary in a theatrical setting but as I watched the discussions on the subject I changed my mind. I cannot speak for anyone else but my audiences know without a disclaimer that I am performing a show. If anyone's intelligence is so feeble they cannot comprehend that entertainment is ...entertainment, life has far greater challenges for them than my trickery. Destiny |
|||||||||
| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Another question of ethics! (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
| Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3~4 [Next] | ||||||||||
Posted: May 27, 2008 10:31 pm 
| [ Top of Page ] |
|
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2026 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.03 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
|
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < 
|