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Doug Higley
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V.I.P.
Here and There
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Whatever the outcome Steve and individual minds are made up, I would like to commend you for approaching a challenging and potentially sticky situation with the utmost class and intelligent responses.

In fact this whole community can be proud so far. One need just venture into a few of the other areas of the Café to see what it might have become...Smile

Vents helping Vents. Warm fuzzies abound. Smile
Higley's Giant Flea Pocket Zibit
Acecardician
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New Orleans
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Wow. This is all new to me.
My friend bought a "Vern" from a Magic/costume shop, I think in the 1990's.
Then he gave it to me. I used it until it wore out.
This was back in the 1990's. I got my first computer in 2001. So I had no knowledge and no way of knowing of video copyrights.
How was I to know all this unless I got famous?
I have since bought about $1000.00+ of Axtell puppets and magic, mostly through other magic dealers. I just got a Big Baby from a member here at the Café! I like peforming with the Axtell products.

I have 3 like new Maher puppets. I just read the "retired Maher" site. I'm glad he thinks like this, and I will probably go back to using those.

I did have a friend who sews make me an original cloth stuffed type puppet to my specs. About 10 years ago. As I could not find one like this anywhere. So I always have that option.

I remember getting a Cookie Monster Puppet about 30 years ago. From a retail department store! It did not go over big. Many kids said: "I have one of those!"
So I got rid of it!
But my skill level was not that good back then anyway!
So it's not always the puppet, but the performer!

I have had great success with the "Pedro" I purchased a few years ago.
But I do so many shows, he is getting pretty ragged looking. So I retired him and got out a 'baby vern' I bought 10 years ago and never used. I guess I will retire him and go back to my Maher puppets.

I'm a nobody, and all this talk scares me into not wanting to use a puppet that has a liscense on it.

Puppet makers:
Just think of me as a potential future customer. I have to replace puppets every few years because of the amount of shows I do. And I will be doing this the rest of my life. If I have to worry about being seen on a video with a certain puppet, the chances are I will not buy it.

And I am in so many places, I am always getting videoed. It does not bother me. It seems everyone has a hand held video recorder. I have no idea what people do with those videos. I know most are for home use. But who knows? I am not one of those famous guys with a no video clause in his contract. I like video!
And I want the option to do Media if it comes to me!

I feel if I paid the purchase price for a tool, it is mine to use creatively as I please.

I was one of the magicians(that happens to use puppets!) that corresponded with Tom, and I told him I would pipe in with my two bits! Just things from my life! Hope this helps!


ACE
olivertwist
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Nashua, NH
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I don't have a serious problem with Axtell's policy on stock figures. Clearly Steve owns the rights to those images. My real objection is to find out about it long after having bought the figures. On the other hand, as much as I love Vern, I'd rather not use figures that the audience sees other performers using. I may have to try my hand at figure making (for my own use not for selling). I have a background in art and sculpture and have done a fair amount of mold making. I guess it's time.
olivertwist
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My latex skunk and Vern are listed in the vent buy/sell thread. If interested I'm open to offers.
Doug Higley
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Here and There
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This is beginning to resemble the tiny snowball rolling down the ski slope. Do you allreally want it to pick up speed and catch you on the way down?

Since Ax seems to be a focus here, might it not be proper to give him a few days of thought and weighing all the aspects before you toss your cookies back into the blender? Remember all the effort you all put into your shows and the good feelings you had about the Axtell puppets and what they brought to the table FOR YOU to be able to move ahead with a professional appearance from the get go. Take into consideration all the effort, passion and blood sweat and tears put in by AX for the benefit of the industry (and YOU). DUES were paid big time and sure there are upstarts and wanna bees (some very talanted) popping up all over the place...but shouldn't the Ax be given the benefit of the doubt and a time to consider all the ramifications before jumping ship? Hasn't he and his team earned that much? Your call of course but wow...yes this is a serious and important discussion to be sure...these are very touchy issues but it's beginning to see like there is a hint of 'knee jerking' going on...I don't blame anyone for that but I do caution to maybe slow down a bit and let the person who should have earned our respect weigh the pros and cons before running amok. It's what negotiations are all about after all. If all the Axtell name is just another comodoty to use and toss then something is realy missing here.

Read my other posts, you know where I stand but I also have a boat load of respect for Ax and what he has accomplished for all of us and that deserves a bit of allowance on our part to do other than threaten his business and position in the industry.

Just my opinion...but I know many of you, infact I introduce Oliver every time he steps on a stage (and others too) so I have a personal torment going on here...I'm on your side but also I completely resist the idea that Ax hasn't EARNED every bit of leeway we can offer.

Sorry for the speech...but time for reflection and thinking rather than acting...me thinks.

Doug
Higley's Giant Flea Pocket Zibit
Wanlu
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Manila, Philippines
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I agree with Doug Smile

I think we should not do anything we might regret in the future. I don't know what to do without my Axtell family despite the fact that I have my own puppets...you know what I mean.

The issue on Media Rights is important specially for us vents /magicians who are planning to make a DVD or something like that...and I'm sure Ax will address the problem in a way that is acceptable to all of us.

I'm also suggesting that issues concerning Media Rights be addressed on a one on one basis...case to case.

Tom respects Ax and I'm sure all of us do...so let us consider that respect when we post comments and specially before we do drastic steps.


Wanlu
"The Old Path"
www.angdatingdaan.org

Wanlu's Affordable Puppets
http://wanlu.net/ventpuppets.html

Wanlu and his Puppets
http://wanlu.net
Wanlu
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Oh by the way...I post comments both as a puppet buyer and seller.

I agree with most puppet makers that when a puppet has been bought, it's the new owner's right to use it any possible way he can...

...copyright must be against people who might copy your designs and sell it as his.

As a seller, it will be an honor for my puppet team to see our works being used in Vent DVD's Smile As a buyer, it will be so cool not to pay extra for the use of the puppets I own in my DVD projects.

That's basically how I feel...

I respect both Tom and Ax...and the rest of us participating in this thread. So far it does remain as an intelligent discussion and I hope we all keep it that way Smile

I'd like to use this hot topic to promote the puppets I'm selling but that would sound unfair. So I won't ask you to visit our temporary website at http://kadoopsypuppets.multiply.com/

Thanks Smile

Wanlu
"The Old Path"
www.angdatingdaan.org

Wanlu's Affordable Puppets
http://wanlu.net/ventpuppets.html

Wanlu and his Puppets
http://wanlu.net
axtell
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Steve Axtell
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Thanks guys.... Please don't forget that we at Axtell Expressions give a lot more value to our tens of thousands of customers than just puppet characters....

For over 10 years we have maintained, paid for and continue to fund the International Performer's Directory. This is something that we offer free for all puppeteers & magicians... http://www.axtell.com/performers.html This is a way for you to promote your entertainment business to event coordinators, party planners, booking agents, and those wanting to hire a performer. Are you listed?

Free Learning Center Resources....http://www.axtell.com/learn.html
Vent Lesson....Manipulation tips... and much more.

Free Marketing resources... http://www.axtell.com/marketing.html
Idea to help make your business grow....

We have over hired staff to keep production time short... I will hire more if needed. We are not very profitable....it's a very expensive business, and I've risked it all many times by refinancing our house several times to stay afloat.

Then there is R&D. We invest heavily in the areas of new products for you. We spent over $20,000 developing the Remote Control Board.... I won't even tell you what we are spending as a team on the Hands-Free. It's insane. But...we are here to create new products that you can use in your shows and in your work. Hopefully it will be profitable, but who knows? The ideas are endless for me....I have over 200 written down yet to do....and then many submissions come in every day from customers all over the world. We have no shortage of new things to excite the entertainment world with....

Any of you that are long time customers will know that we support you all the way. This is not a part time venture for us. It's MUCH more than media rights to us. We have encouraged, provide resources, idea, and connections over the years for many of you. We often refer customer to other puppet makers as well. We have done so for over many different puppet companies in the last few years alone. We can't make everything we get asked about...so when a job comes along that we cannot do for one reason or another.... I refer people all the time to MAT Puppets or Conrad, or Selberg, or Pavlov or Handemonium, etc.

So thank you for your kind words and thoughts....and a little time to figure this out would be appreciated. Ax
Axtell Expressions, Inc.
Pro Puppets, Magic & Animatronics
mthat
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Thanks for the reply Tom. I will be posting a lengthier reply to the other sections, but wanted to reply to the LesPaul/Dummy analogy first. While I agree with you that the performer is adding a substantial amount of value to the act with the voice, character and stage presence, I do not believe that dummies are just another prop, and although you protest, I don't think you do either. If I substitute one magic wand for another, it doesn't change the act (ignoring special wands). If I substitute one guitar for a similar one, the fingerings, chords etc. stay the same. It's different for puppets that start with a certain look or have a special character (for example vent dummies or special puppets), substituting them with another dummy/puppet may and probably would require changes in the act. I can understand a beginning performer not understanding this, but most professional stage professionals (comedians, actors, magicians, etc.) will understand what I mean. After you've spent time, energy and money perfecting an act, you try not to change it.
When I went to your website, I was impressed with the professional layout. It suggests you have considerable experience, and are not just a beginner. The layout suggests that your actions are not in line with what you have argued. In your argument you mentioned that "it was you, your voice, your timing, your pacing.." and that it was your "talent" and "not the figure". However in your web page layouts, all I see are pictures showcasing the different puppets you use, along with a brief character sketch (excepting the photo of you with the "Big Mouth " prop). If you really believe that the puppets are incidental, why are you putting all your advertising showcasing the puppets, rather than having video segments showcasing your voice, talent, and performance, or is this discussion solely to rally the crowd and try to put pressure on certain people?
There are real issues involved here that will affect the entire performance industry for a long time, and that is why I am writing this. Its easy to call for the guillitine, until its your head on the chopping block. This is a small community, and I hope that those involved will not make personal attacks, but look at the issues, and take time to discuss them objectively so that whatever decisions are reached, that they will be as amicable to everyone as possible. In my next post, I will try and layout some of the issues as I see them for discussion.
tacrowl
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Quote:
On 2008-06-08 10:23, Wanlu wrote:
I'd like to use this hot topic to promote the puppets I'm selling but that would sound unfair. So I won't ask you to visit our temporary website at http://kadoopsypuppets.multiply.com/


LOL - Cute Wanlu, real cute!

I started this thread and have not done anything with any of my figures yet. I have not taken anything off of my web site or advertising. I have taken a puppet out of my show, to work with figures I know I'm using on the DVD, but I haven't gotten rid of it. I'm waiting to see how this plays out.

Oliver PM'd me to say he was selling his figures. I asked what would happen if Axtell changed the policy - might he want to keep them? He gave me a very good answer and I'm sure he will share it here. Each person has to make up their own mind - but please don't jump off the Axtell ship yet.

Steve and his company provide quality figures with loads of visual appeal. He delivers top notch customer service. They are innovators in the field. Its a great company and they deal with major media as well as "little guys" like me. Steve and company do need time to sort through the legal and financial complications of making any changes to their policy. Its not as simple as saying - okay.

Thanks Doug for pointing that out - and Wanlu for echoing the comments. I feel I am most to blame here. I've been trying to raise awareness of this issue and invite others to share their opinions. If we get great input from a wide range of performers and puppet/figure makers - as Steve said - we may actually be able to create a new industry standard. A pretty powerful thought.

Because the rights issue wasn't widely known - some have contacted me that are extremely upset - and a few are worried about legal situations. That tends to cause an emotional response. Lets continue to get views - and not rush to judge anyone on this matter.
Tom Crowl - Comedy Ventriloquist

ComedyVentriloquist.com

Learn-Ventriloquism.com

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mthat
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The topic of this discussion was "Copyright" but what this topic is really referring to are properly called "Intellectual Property Rights" Intellectual Property rights include statutory rights like copyright, trademark and patents, and contractual rights like mechanical, sync, and licensing fees/royalties. A single product may utilize one or more of these rights. The rights, benefits, and liabilities vary according to different countries, jurisdictions, and treaties. While the multi-layered jurisdiction is difficult enough, the laws being applied are sixty years behind the times, and struggling to catch up. As many know, the advance of technology now allows instant publication and production by almost anyone. Many of the royalties, fees, and costs are not new. Major recording studios and film studios had lawyers on staff to handle the various permissions, consents, contracts, licenses, fee etc. that were required for a production. The royalty free music previously mentioned by Tom, was a response for radio and television stations so they would have musical bumpers that did not require additional permissions or fees. Now many companies have new opportunities (such as user generated media, and distribution rights) that require manufacturers, producers and creators to develop policies and procedures for. Its like finding oil on your land, and trying to find out how to market the additional revenue. Larger manufacturers/producers face different challenges than smaller producers.
Now that anyone can produce a DVD or You-tube, complaints about legal requirements and fees are growing in all arenas. Parents of students who cannot get a copy of a high school musical production, jugglers who can't use certain musin in their acts, etc. Those leading the industry are the first to hear about it because of their national/international stature. They are also the first to "defend" what seems to be as some have alleged "nickel and diming" people. Sometimes the issues are withing the control of the company, sometimes they aren't. For example, under U.S. trademark law, a trademark holder is Required to defend his/her trademark, or it can be lost. That is why many companies (ex. Disney) aggressively fight to maintain control of their IP.
These are tough economic times and companies need to be prudent to survive. Not that long ago, there was a company in England called "Pelham Puppets" which produced a high quality line of marionettes and puppets, and were distributed in the very best toy and stores. Economic pressures caused the company to close and for many years one could only find cheap "toy" quality puppets. While a mom&pop creator may be able to waive fees without any significant impact, those same fees may be all that keeps a larger company afloat. The negative impact of one character appearing in an illegal act on you-tube affects differs. For a individual creator, only one person suffers. For a larger company, that same act affects everyone who had purchased the same character. A smaller company can treat customers differently. Larger companies need to be fair to a larger more diverse group. While a Las Vegas performer may be able to afford certain fees for their DVD"s, that same rate may not be affordable for someone wanting to distribute a dvd of their act. Flat rates are easy to compute, but tend to hinder the small occasional performer and short changes the company. Percentage fees are easier for a small performer, but are expensive and paperwork intensive. As an industry, puppeteers and magicians need not only individual creators, but also the larger studios. I'm not trying to advocate for any one side, but hoping to clarify some of the issues facing both sides. While the final proposals may not be amicable to everyone (after all no one likes to pay for anything they don't have to), they should be fair both to the performer and to the manufacturer(whether big or small).
More later.
Glenn
Wanlu
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With all due respect...may we know who Glenn is please Smile

I know a Glenn who is a figure maker...so I'm guessing Glenn might be posting as a seller which I don't think anyone would mind as long as the comments of the buyers are also noted.
"The Old Path"
www.angdatingdaan.org

Wanlu's Affordable Puppets
http://wanlu.net/ventpuppets.html

Wanlu and his Puppets
http://wanlu.net
tacrowl
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Maryland
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Quote:
On 2008-06-08 10:55, mthat wrote:
While I agree with you that the performer is adding a substantial amount of value to the act with the voice, character and stage presence, I do not believe that dummies are just another prop, and although you protest, I don't think you do either. If I substitute one magic wand for another, it doesn't change the act (ignoring special wands). If I substitute one guitar for a similar one, the fingerings, chords etc. stay the same. It's different for puppets that start with a certain look or have a special character (for example vent dummies or special puppets), substituting them with another dummy/puppet may and probably would require changes in the act.


mthat -
You've got two posts now. You started off asking questions as a lawyer and now come back doubting I believe my own responses. I have no idea who you are, but it doesn't sound by that post as though you are writing a book on law for performers. I don't know if you are trying to fan flames, but realize this, I am serious in my answers and I won't play any games with you. I want this to stay civilized.

Hope this clarifies your new line of "questioning".

I don't believe I ever said (or meant) all figures were the same. Certainly hard figures operate differently from soft puppets. Still, do you honestly believe one maker creates a say - "dumb" looking puppet and another does not? There is your special look. Using my dragon as the example - he has offset eyes - a very cute look - and I gave him a "dufus"/red neck character. Not too bright, but very loveable. I switched him out for my Bighead Deeder - which I had not finalized a character for yet. Deeder is a dufus/redneck looking figure - problem solved.

Is there a difference. Sure - one is a hard figure human, the other a soft figure animal. Still - the scripting and routine requires only minor changes. Did you know they can have the same voice? The same vocal inflections? I haven't worked with Deeder as much - so I have to work on getting comfortable with him - but I had to do the same thing with the soft puppet when I started using it. Oh - and the other difference - one requires a media fee - the other came with media rights.

Quote:
I can understand a beginning performer not understanding this, but most professional stage professionals (comedians, actors, magicians, etc.) will understand what I mean. After you've spent time, energy and money perfecting an act, you try not to change it.


Professional stage professionals. Wow - that sounds professional. Smile I've been a pro magician since 1984. I earn a living performing. In case you want to start a whole discussion on that, please save it for another thread.

I switched to vent a couple of years ago and now earning a living at that. As a magician - I had signature routines I loved to do - and I also continued to create new routines in favor of others. When I switched to vent - I dropped all that. My first shows were horrible even with my years of stage experience. I learned, wrote script, adapted and I'm having a blast with vent. THAT is a change of act. Any act can get stagnate if they don't adapt and change. Comedians do change their act - look at Dunham's specials - look at comedians like Robin Williams or Jerry Seinfeld when he returned to stand up. Musicians create new music even as they continue to play their classic hits. Sorry, but that is a pretty poor argument.

Quote:
When I went to your website, I was impressed with the professional layout. It suggests you have considerable experience, and are not just a beginner. The layout suggests that your actions are not in line with what you have argued. In your argument you mentioned that "it was you, your voice, your timing, your pacing.." and that it was your "talent" and "not the figure". However in your web page layouts, all I see are pictures showcasing the different puppets you use, along with a brief character sketch (excepting the photo of you with the "Big Mouth " prop). If you really believe that the puppets are incidental, why are you putting all your advertising showcasing the puppets, rather than having video segments showcasing your voice, talent, and performance,


Why do I promote/show my puppets pictures and provide a bio on them? They are a part of the show. Why does any vent have a picture with his or her figures? Part of the show. Why do you see pictures of country stars with their guitars? Part of the show. I am a prop act - BUT I can use any prop. Sherrie Lewis used a sock.

I do include video of my "talent" on the site. Having me stand there and doing vent without a figure would work - but it isn't my act. It may become that - but it isn't now. I want clients to see what they can expect to see in the show - simple marketing - not bait and switch.

Did you read the quotes? Not a single one said the puppet was the star of the show. Funny how they all mentioned me though. How are the quotes not in line with my line of thought? Don't pull a single example without taking the whole site into consideration. I get jobs based on my presentation of the act - and yes, the presentation "I create" of the figures in my advertising.

Quote:
or is this discussion solely to rally the crowd and try to put pressure on certain people?


That reads like a personal attack toward me. I'm not a vicious or petty person and carry no grudge against anyone or company. At the very least the statement tries to reframe and change this issue.

I am not trying to rally anyone into putting pressure on anyone. I spoke out against that above. I started this to get opinions - was it the norm? I had never heard of media rights - I'm not a "media person" - yet this affected me. I wanted to know - did others realize they may be affected? Most didn't know. Now I simply want call attention to the performer's rights or lack thereof to use a purchased figure. They can then make up their own minds.

I never mentioned anyone by name - and it wasn't until makers mentioned their policy in favor of fees that I said anything directly. Even then it wasn't negative, but simply to ask them to expand on their answer.

If people seem to be jumping - it is because they did not realize the issue existed and they are personally involved and upset. I will say it again - we can express opinions but should not do anything rash. If figure and puppet makers want to charge for media usage - they have that right. If customers want to purchase or not purchase from them - they have that right.

Personally all I'd like to see is the issue discussed so people know about it.

Quote:
There are real issues involved here that will affect the entire performance industry for a long time, and that is why I am writing this. Its easy to call for the guillitine, until its your head on the chopping block. This is a small community, and I hope that those involved will not make personal attacks, but look at the issues, and take time to discuss them objectively so that whatever decisions are reached, that they will be as amicable to everyone as possible. In my next post, I will try and layout some of the issues as I see them for discussion.


No one is trying to cut off anyone's head here. So far, I've seen a fairly civilized discussion. (At least until I read your post and I'm hoping it wasn't intended that way.) If anyone believes I have attacked them (personally) unfairly, please send me the quote - give me your opinion and I will clarify my meaning or - if completely wrong - I will apologize. I'm not above doing that - see my apology post earlier in the thread.

I do agree with you on one thing - it is an important issue that will impact the performing community.
Tom Crowl - Comedy Ventriloquist

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mthat
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Wanlu, My apologies. I included a brief intro in my first post, and thought it would be readily available, but I'll restate it. I am neither a seller nor a figure maker, but an attorney (cue boos and hisses), and my practice includes intellectual property law. I am presently in the process of writing a practical law book for smaller stage performers (cue cheers) such as magicians, puppeteers, theaters, comedians, jugglers etc., so this topic piqued my interest. Growing up in Florida I was graced to meet many retired vaudeville artists, magicians, and vents. My background includes performing magic, clowns, puppetry, comedy, theater and music in a variety of settings. My experience includes work in radio, television and production companies as a videographer, editor, director, producer, and production manager. With the media revolution, my background and experiences led me to want to write a practical "how to" book for performers facing IP and other legal issues. When I saw this topic and the legal confusion, I wanted to help clarify the legal issues so everyone could be treated fairly and the issues discussed objectively. It is important to remember that not everyone on this forum is from the same country and that laws can and do vary. While the application of the laws may differ, the issues are substantially the same. So I am not giving a legal opinion, but trying to educate and clarify what the legal positions of the parties are.
As a performer I want to know what I can and can't do, and to have an idea of what it might cost to do some things such as use a certain piece of music or a certain copyrighted article in my production. Then I can decide whether I want to use it, to change it, or whether the project is feasible at all.
As a owner of property having intellectual property tights, they want to maintain control over the use, value, and licensing rights so that the company can stay in business, the company complies with all governmental regulations, and is fair to its customers and investors.
Both parties require a clear and easy to understand policy to meet the above goals. Its worth remembering that even is a policy if fair and reasonable, not everyone will be happy with it.

Glenn
Wanlu
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Thanks Glenn Smile
"The Old Path"
www.angdatingdaan.org

Wanlu's Affordable Puppets
http://wanlu.net/ventpuppets.html

Wanlu and his Puppets
http://wanlu.net
tacrowl
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Glenn -
Your "Intellectual Property Rights" makes a lot of sense. Just the kind of discussion I was looking for. I now have a better understanding of the issue, although I still have questions.

Would you please elaborate on this -
Quote:
The negative impact of one character appearing in an illegal act on you-tube affects differs. For a individual creator, only one person suffers. For a larger company, that same act affects everyone who had purchased the same character. A smaller company can treat customers differently. Larger companies need to be fair to a larger more diverse group.


How would the larger company defend their product if they never requested seeing the script - or reviewing the video before it is released? If the fee was charged and permission given - and the user of the product does damage the reputation of the puppet - wouldn't the other customers then have legal recourse against the company based on the fact it granted rights?

Tom
Tom Crowl - Comedy Ventriloquist

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mthat
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Tom,

I apologize if you felt the previous post sounded like a personal attack. It was not meant to be. As I mentioned your website is nicely done, conveys your professionalism, but appeared to me inconsistent with your previous argument. I'll change subjects next and talk about media fees after I get some sleep.
Also my apologies for any typos or spelling errors. I'm also working on two other projects and trying to work this in, so not much time for error checking. I'm new to this forum, and just found the edit button.

Glenn Martell
olivertwist
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This is to clarify my position and why I'm selling Vern and the skunk. I'm not selling them to protest the media rights. I don't like the restriction but it doesn't impact me at all as I'm not planning to do any videos or TV appearances. This discussion got me thinking about originality and the effect on my image of using figures that are used by most other ventriloquists. At this time I want to move towards unique or at least uncommon figures.

I love Steve's work. He's a great artist and I agree that he owns the rights to the images he's created. I'm sure he'll work out the details of how to protect his rights while permitting performers to use his characters profitably to do their work. Clearly it would be a violation of Steve's right to his images if someone were to use the image of Vern to sell products, or if I sold Vern T-shirts. So there's a line that needs to be defined and I'll leave that to the lawyers.
Acecardician
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Hello all:

I am not a vent. I'm a magician that has a puppet that does a magic trick. The trick is the focus, and a puppet greatly enhances my routine. I started with a dog puppet I got at a convention with no paperwork, so I guess he is a mutt! Unable to replace him, I got some feathered friends to take his place. Any puppet could actually do the job. But the feathered guys are readily available and are really really fun to work with. ( I now have lots and lots of puppets!)

I don't plan on doing media. I just want to take the opportunity to do it if it comes my way.

What confuses me, is that one of the guys who supplies my major source of props, has no notice of copyright. Here is his ad for Puppets: http://www.hanklee.org/xcart/product.php......0&page=1

So when he purchases the product from the maker, does he take up the liability?
If I used it in media, would he be responsible since I did not know?


I usually discard instructions after getting a prop that I already know what I'm going to do with.

Then if rights were on the instructions, and I did read them, I would not know until after purchasing.

Since reading this thread. I did go to the site in question. It did take me a few minutes to find the copyright. When I was looking for it.

Copyrights are something I never thought about as a consumer. When I go to a puppet site(or any magic site for that matter), I am usually like a kid in a toy store. I click right to where I want to go. Right to the merchandise. Time seems to get shorter as I get older. So I don't waist time reading anything except the product info that is posted by the product, price and postage, things like that. And I have seen a few magic effects from other dealers that say "TV rights included" or "TV rights reserved" which helped me make the decision. And never bothered me at all.

What I'm trying to say in all this: I think a lot of us never knew a policy existed on puppets. So one line should be in all the advertising, even ads by other dealers commissioned to sell the products, either saying "media rights included" or "media rights not included".
This line should be in every description by every single item for sale everywhere.
I think this would end all confusion.

ACE Smile
Acecardician
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Hi again.

This topic has really been helpful to me.
It's been making me think. I think the above routine I mentioned is worth putting on DVD for sale. I met David Kaye at a convention years ago. He asked me for something to print in his column at the time. I never got around to it. But this is what I would have given him. If I do release it to him, I thought it would be easier to send a performance on DVD for him to write up. Also anyone interested could purchase a DVD to see the routine. It is about 30 years in the making. Many, many bits of business are developed into the routine, a lot of it from things kids say. When they say something funny, I remember it. And provoke new kids to say these things in the next show for the laughs. The only way you can learn this is by doing it thousands of times. Or watching me do it.

Although my routine was developed with a generic Dalmatian dog puppet, it can be used with almost any puppet. I recently added 'Pedro' and the arm illusion and that works well. At Easter I use a Rabbit puppet. For safety shows I used McGruff. I wrote Steve a few years ago about a Reindeer puppet for Christmas.
And I am planning on getting more birds, as this does work equally well with them all year long. And they are goofy, fun, and colorful. And I like to collect stuff I can use in the future.

BUT: It is the magic content and the routine that I would be selling. No vent. is in my routine(although it could be added).
I will mainly be bringing magicians over to puppets. Any maybe make future puppeteers.

It seems that whatever puppet I use, would bring more sales to that puppet maker.
I could put where to get the puppet on the DVD.
A magician just beginning with puppets would probably want to use the one I used in the demo performance. Especially after seeing my routine.
But my DVD could also include several different puppets doing the magic trick, to show how each one works well in its own way.
Maybe someone could donate 10 or 20 different puppets to me?(lol) Or lend them for filming. I could demo the effect with each one. And make future sales for the puppet maker.

Now my market would be so small, I would probably loose money if made a DVD. The puppet maker would probably make more from new sales of puppets.
So I eagerly await what is going to happen. As this could change the outcome of this future project I may do.

Then I could always just put the routine on youtube for free!
Anything wrong with that?

ACE Smile
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