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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Dvd, Video tape, Audio tape & Compact discs. » » Card Warp Finale by Paul Green (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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mclose
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MagicSanta:

I believe your comment about Lifesavers is entirely incorrect; you are thinking a different magician. You need to be more careful before you send a comment like that out into the universe.

Best

Close
Review King
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The matter should have been handled privately between Weber and Green. Or.......Michael Weber should have come here and posted about it himself.

Does Weber think he's Don Corleone and Mike Close is his Luca Brasi?

Mike CLose: Don Weber, how will you get Green to concede the ending is yours?

Weber: I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse.....I want you to send Green a "Magician's message". During the convention, I want you to pants Green in front of his peers, so this type of thing never happens again.

BADA BING, BABY!!!
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
erlandish
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This is ridiculous.

It was a private matter between Green and Weber before Green decided to start sharing the idea and to make money off it. When that decision was made, it became a public one. Every day that nothing is done is a day that Green is making money off the product. If that product is illegitimate, if Green is making money that should be going to Weber OR shouldn't be going to anybody because Weber doesn't want it out there, then that's an important issue. Either Green is doing something unethical here, or Weber's being a jerk. I for one want to know which it is. One of the two is making an incorrect claim on the ownership of the material here, and I'd like to know who that might be.

Frankly, I'm amazed, Christopher, that as somebody who spends so much time lashing out at Magic Makers, you're choosing not to see this point.

Personally, I'm appreciative of what Michael Close is doing here, so much so that I'm violating my self-imposed ban on Magic Café discussions to lend my support.

Not that it'll matter, because it'll get deleted anyway, I'm sure.
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Robert M
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I just watched this today. I thought the routine itself was very pedestrian. And, I didn't like the ending all that much.

To me, the best ending for Card Warp is the one Doug Henning performed on TV many years ago.

JMO,
Robert
Review King
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Quote:
On 2008-06-12 21:56, erlandish wrote:

....Frankly, I'm amazed, Christopher, that as somebody who spends so much time lashing out at Magic Makers, you're choosing not to see this point.

Personally, I'm appreciative of what Michael Close is doing here, so much so that I'm violating my self-imposed ban on Magic Café discussions to lend my support....



I knew it was nicer around here for some reason, but I couldn't put my finger on it. Please feel free to impose the ban again. lol.

Being an outsider and not able to look at the bigger picture, you compare apples to oranges.

You see, this is between two veterans in the magic world. It should have been handled privately.

Yes, Mike Close put on his red cape and swoooped into the Café and saved the world. This under $20, if it's any indication of other so called "one trick DVD's", won't be making anyone wealthy.

Oh that's right, it's the priciple of the thing. Then why doesn't Mike Close spend his time going though every post on the Café and right the wrongs of all the releases in magic? Why did he pick this and only this disucssion?
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
PaulGreen
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Hello everyone,

This was posted on the Genii Forum. Perhaps it will remain here:

"Hi everyone,

Time for me, once again, to chime in.

Michael Weber and I have been in communication. He asked me what I remembered when he and I discussed Card Warp. I did share with him my recollections. Further, he asked me why I did not consult him prior to releasing the DVD or lecturing on the item. I also addressed that with Michael Weber, directly.

Yes, Michael Weber showed me a display ending for Card Warp. To my memory, it was different then what I developed. Michael Weber, and his loyal friends disagree.

I chose not to consult Michael Weber before releasing the item because I felt that what I had developed was significantly different from what I recall. Aaronson, Bongo, Cervon, & Lewis were contacted because the material I used in my routines was without variation. Michael Weber felt that I should have contacted him.

What we have here is a difference of opinion. Nothing I say will change anyone's mind. I stand by my recollections (I don't think my memory has "failed") and by my actions. I know that both Michael Weber and I are serious about the Art of Magic. I do my best to credit and obtain permission when I see fit. I have apologized to Michael for not contacting him.

Michael Weber and I are communicating. Richard Kaufman, Jon Racherbaumer, Bob Farmer, & Michael Close have high-profile positions within the Magic Community and when they offer their opinions, people listen. I will not attack Michael Weber or his supporters. I don't think that Michael Weber needs to personally post his feelings to clear the air, and I would like anyone that is pressuring him for a response to stop. Can't we all move forward?

I feel as if I am most hated person in Magic (not withstanding J. B.). The loss of friends and reputation is punishment enough.

Respectfully,

Paul Green"
erlandish
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Quote:
On 2008-06-12 22:26, Christopher Kavanagh wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-06-12 21:56, erlandish wrote:

....Frankly, I'm amazed, Christopher, that as somebody who spends so much time lashing out at Magic Makers, you're choosing not to see this point.

Personally, I'm appreciative of what Michael Close is doing here, so much so that I'm violating my self-imposed ban on Magic Café discussions to lend my support....



I knew it was nicer around here for some reason, but I couldn't put my finger on it. Please feel free to impose the ban again. lol.


Oh... Classy, Chris. Well done.

Quote:
Being an outsider and not able to look at the bigger picture, you compare apples to oranges.


I'm sorry if I lack the requisite 9000 Magic Café posts that would make me an insider and therefore permitted to offer an opinion on the topic. The question is who has true ownership of the contents of the DVD, which is directly comparable to the things Magic Makers has done in the past and that you've openly argued against. Personally, I'm open to the possibility that Weber is making a gross mistake here and damaging the reputation of an innocent magician. That said, we're not about to get to the bottom of this with all discussion being suppressed.

I, as a consumer, like to be informed of these things. Discussions like these have value to me, since I don't like to purchase things in ignorance.

Quote:
Yes, Mike Close put on his red cape and swoooped into the Café and saved the world. This under $20, if it's any indication of other so called "one trick DVD's", won't be making anyone wealthy.

Oh that's right, it's the priciple of the thing. Then why doesn't Mike Close spend his time going though every post on the Café and right the wrongs of all the releases in magic? Why did he pick this and only this disucssion?


From where I see it, Michael saw an issue that wasn't being addressed, and he addressed it. Your suggestion is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. What's more, with all the Café deletions that go on in these situations, historical records are shoddy at best.
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Review King
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Lem and ...erlandish ( is that your name????? )

In the begining I stated and still do, that it should have been handled privatley.

Why aren't you both asking Michael Close why he doesn't chime in on every thread about Magic Makers? He doesn't because he is only interested in this thread because it is about his friend, Michael Weber. He "knows" Paul Green, but Paul isn't his friend.

You see, you both don't look at the bigger picture. Michael Weber is saying this handling is his. It's not published anywhere. You both are stating your opinions only on what Mike Close is saying.

So...who else was present when Weber and Green had there conversation 30 years ago? It doesn't matter what Weber showed his friends at a later date. It isn't publsihed anywhere, so we're going by memories and such.

I've never met Michael Weber or Paul Green ( or Mike CLose ). I look at it as they are part of an inner circle of magic. It's not a veteran and a 20 year old kid new to the business. It's two veterans and it should have been handled privately. Green is talking with Weber and was doing so before this public lynching.

It's two verterans of magic that have different memeories of what they discussed.
It's over an ending to a trick that... neither of them invented.

And Lem and er..whatever your name is, you both have bought things that if you knew the backroom history of it, you'd both be angry over it's release ( according to your posts on this subject ).

But you aren't angry. Why? Listen closely..BECAUSE THE ISSUE WAS HANDLED PRIVATELY! You don't have a clue as to the history of most the things you use. You get all your information from "public" forums.

So, both of you should stop performing all the magic you love, because there is something you both perform that...and accoriding to your high moral standards...you shouldn't be.

When I take a stand on an issue, I have privately researched it. The both of you should do the same instead of reading one post by a well know magciian and jumping on your high moral horse.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
silverking
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Quote:
PaulGreen wrote:

Michael Weber and I are communicating.

Geez guys, what part of this sentence isn't making sense?

Nobody here can offer up any further illumination, and Mike has once again stated his memory of events......OK, we've all read it now.
Most folks are pretty smart around here, and more than capable of understanding what it is that they're reading, and perhaps even doing a bit of reading between the lines.

But enough from guys who aren't involved other than to continue to stir the pot......myself included.

Let the two gentlemen actually involved in this thing continue their communication in peace.

(and remind me to check a dictionary, I recall that there's a HUGE difference between "disagreement" and "rip-off"........if rip-off's even in there Smile )
Review King
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Silverking said "I recall that there's a HUGE difference between "disagreement" and "rip-off".

Thank you for posting and putting the issue in perspective.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
PaulGreen
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Lemiscafe,

I have no way of contacting you privately. Please be so kind as to contact me via PM (if you choose) and provide an email address. I do wish to address some of your concerns mentioned above.

Respectfully,

Paul Green
erlandish
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Quote:
On 2008-06-13 00:07, Christopher Kavanagh wrote:
You see, you both don't look at the bigger picture. Michael Weber is saying this handling is his. It's not published anywhere. You both are stating your opinions only on what Mike Close is saying.


I can't speak for Lemiscafe, but my interest is based upon the communications that Close, Kaufman and others have received from Weber himself that are documented more thoroughly at the Genii forum, where Weber states that it is his routine being copied. My main concern is to see if that's true or false. Frankly, if it involves a product that's on the market, this is good information to have out there. Similarly, if Paul Green can demonstrate that it's not his, then some people are making irresponsible accusations and THAT should be made public.

Quote:
It's two verterans of magic that have different memeories of what they discussed.
It's over an ending to a trick that... neither of them invented.


Daryl didn't invent the Ambitious Card trick either, but if anybody copied his climax to the ACR without his permission, there'd be a firestorm, and rightfully so.

Quote:
And Lem and er..whatever your name is, you both have bought things that if you knew the backroom history of it, you'd both be angry over it's release ( according to your posts on this subject ).

But you aren't angry. Why? Listen closely..BECAUSE THE ISSUE WAS HANDLED PRIVATELY! You don't have a clue as to the history of most the things you use. You get all your information from "public" forums.

So, both of you should stop performing all the magic you love, because there is something you both perform that...and accoriding to your high moral standards...you shouldn't be.


I'm sorry Christopher, but unless you can make an accurate list of the things I and Lem have bought and the magic we've performed, this statement is ridiculous.

Quote:
When I take a stand on an issue, I have privately researched it. The both of you should do the same instead of reading one post by a well know magciian and jumping on your high moral horse.


I didn't bother to get involved until I saw that Richard Kaufman and several others over at the Genii forums confirmed that there was an issue. At that point, when I came back here and started seeing the flack that Michael Close was getting for his attempt to bring up the issue, it was obvious something needed to be said.

And Christopher, there's no need to send any more personal messages with you giggling about how everybody hates me. I honestly don't really care.
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Review King
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Erlandfish, when you put your real picture and post your full name, I guess we'll take you more serious.

And of course you are so smart to stay in the back ground until Richard Kaufman posted his thoughts.

Is that the same Richard Kaufman that said Erdnase was anitiquated? Of course, he later recanted his "position". Yes, I'd follow him over the cliff over any issue. LOL!!!

That was before your time..so...maybe you don't have all the answers that you profess to have? Think...BIGGER PICTURE!
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
erlandish
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Erlandfish...? Is that honestly the best you can do? Are you TRYING to invoke pity?

Who I am in this is immaterial. I came to voice my support for Michael Close in trying to make this issue known to the Magic Café. If people want to dismiss that because I post under a pseudonym, that's fine.

What's more, your comment about Kaufman is irrelevant. He talked about a message he received directly from Michael Weber, and others confirmed that they got it too. It was that message that solidified the fact that there was an issue, not Kaufman's personal position on the issue. If you'd like to educate yourself on that, go over to the Genii forum and read up on it.

With that, I see no need to participate further here.
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Review King
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Quote:
On 2008-06-13 03:07, erlandish wrote:
Erlandfish...? Is that honestly the best you can do? Are you TRYING to invoke pity?

Who I am in this is immaterial. I came to voice my support for Michael Close in trying to make this issue known to the Magic Café.


Is that not your name?

Yes, Mike Close needs your support. Where would he be without you?
:rotf:
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
Mark Rough
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Christopher,

WTF, man?!!? You have this huge chip on your shoulder lately. You know, it is possible to disagree with people without being juvenile and insulting. It's not helpful and doesn't lend to the conversation, the dialogue. Now, if you just want to hear yourself talk, there are places for monologues. Frankly though, I'm interested in more than just your opinion. You've expressed yours, why not let everyone else express theirs.

Mark

PS Who Erlandish isn't the issue, but the information is right there in front of you in his signature if your interested. He's the author of a very good, and very widely read magic blog. There are many good reasons for NOT using real names on an internet forums, security being foremost. Why don't you just give that particular issue a rest?
What would Wavy do?
ted french
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Yeah his blog is a pretty good read.
P3
practice practice perform.
Tom G
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I certainly hope this whole thing ends up on a good foot. I really thought as has been suggested that the issue was between the two parties. The more I read (on another forum, more so) that Michael Weber contacted a number of names to state his case, was it venting or trying to form a hit team, only he would know. So many of them have come forward to say it is without a doubt Michaels ending, here's something else, one of them said Michael had no knowledge that Paul was using or teaching this in lectures. What? None of them in all these years mentioned this to Michael... or Paul?? Odd. Independent creation? Why it is a great ending, it's not so unique that a dozen others couldn't have come up with it on their own. Magic Santa said he did, what if he had put out the DVD?? Seems
like a whole lot of stress over an ending to a card trick... JMO
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It's a rare occasion that Michael Weber releases anything to the market. Can you blame him? Several years ago I was going to release an effect and Micheal Weber found it and called me. I didn't know him personally, but I found him to be a gentlemen. Turns out he had been doing something very similar for years and asked that I didn't sell my version. I agreed and it was never released.

It was the right thing to do. While I could have justified it in a number of ways - standard effect, independent creation, etc. it just isn't worth it to create hard feelings.

Christopher, I think you're making Michael Weber out to be a bully and it's just not the case. Out of all the effects that come out every year, why is he going after Paul Green for this? How many "Weber controversies" are there? What I'm trying to say is that he wouldn't have taken the actions he did had he not known he was right and originated the ending.

PS - regarding Mark Raven's comments about pseudo-names here. Aside from security being an issue, online persona is another one. If you are a working pro you should have some control over your name when it's Googled. Personally I don't want my clients finding my posts here.
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I think from spirited debate you can learn so much. But...a close friend, who has an account on the Café, called me after reading this thread and gave me some insight on certain things that have been touched on here.

I'll share one interesting thought he had. "Chris, you're wearing formal attire and trying to debate important issues at a masquerade party". I laughed so hard. So, this weekend I'll go to the costume shop to pick out something fun. I look forward to rejoining you all again.

I'll bow out of this thread, since I can't top the Godfather reference I made;-)
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
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