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Ross W Inner circle UK 1778 Posts |
There is a thread started by Christopher Kavanagh in which most people seem to be singing the praises of this DVD trilogy. I'm afraid this review is far less positive.
I should first post the caveat that I bought only one of the three DVDs (the third, as it happens). I'm surely not alone in doing this - I buy one and if I like it I buy the rest. I won't be buying the rest of these. I have heard a LOT over the years about Bob Sheets- how funny he is, how original etc. He may well be. but there is scant evidence of this on the DVD I bought. In fairness to Bob Sheets, he is probably a performer that is best seen handling a large boisterous crowd. Here, he is performing at a table in a studio to four people (two of them usually out of shot) who really seem not to care a jot about what's going on. They barely react once, and Sheets has to coax even the mildest response from them. It's awful, verging on the embarrassing, and very dull. WHat was going on here? I note that one of the audience is the wife of the series' producer, Bob Kohler. Given that they're all friends, why did no one say to the crowd, "C'mon guys, let's have a bit of reaction, some liveliness, some smiles?" It just makes Bob Sheets look like he's boring them. Maybe he was. As for the choice of effects, well there were three. Like many purchasers of magic books and DVDs I'm not seeking trick after trick after trick. I look for originality, fun performances, in-depth explanations and hints from the pros; but the three tricks on this DVD were disappointing, The Three Ball Trick suffered badly from its environment: you can't misdirect a camera. Done live, I bet Sheets kills with this but there was nothing here to tempt me to try it and not much especially new. Flash Deck is, I'm afraid, so-so: the first two phases boil down to the magician guessing which one of four cards has been selected after two pumping questions, and the nice ending doesn't make up for the oreamble. As for Six Tricks In Two Minutes, I had to watch it twice to understand what had happened and even then I was unimpressed. (To be fair, it's never helpful when the selected card matches the "magician got it wrong" card so closely - in this case the Jack and Queen of Clubs. A contrast is far preferable...so why not re-shoot it?) Technically, the quality of the DVD was poor. The whites were washed out so that I often couldn't easily distinguish the cards. The effects on this DVD may well be great before what I understand is a typical Sheets crowd - a bar, say. Trouble is, there's no way of telling. I have bought other Bob Kohler products before and been satisfied. The hype for this led me to believe I would get something really amazing. Sadly not. This DVD compares very poorly with the set put out a few years ago featuring Doc Eason, who says he learnt so much from Bob Sheets. THOSE tapes are crammed with magic with great performances to boot. I would say there probably is a great set of DVDs featuring Bob Sheets at his best, but they are yet to be made. |
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immr1drfl New user 93 Posts |
Great review, I love hearing both sides.
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magic-upclose New user 58 Posts |
Thanks for the review Ross.
I've watched Bob lecture live and I came away with a similar feeling to your review. It's why I haven't picked these up yet, despite the glowing reviews.... |
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Danny Diamond Inner circle Connecticut 1400 Posts |
Bob Sheets was one of the funniest and friendliest guys I have seen perform/lecture. Sorry to hear that these DVDs (or at least Volume 3, in this case) didn't showcase his talents very well.
You don't drown by falling in the water;
you drown by staying there. - Edwin Louis Cole |
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shaunproof Loyal user Parts Unknown 228 Posts |
Ross,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. |
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
I also like to have different views. From spirited debate, we learn.Ross, thanks for sharing your experiences viewing one of the DVD's from the 3 DVD set.
Ross, first question, did you perform, for an audience, any the effects from the one DVD you watched? Ross, you say "Given that they're all friends, why did no one say to the crowd, "C'mon guys, let's have a bit of reaction, some liveliness, some smiles?" So you would like the producer of a DVD to stage the reactions? There are producers who get the crowds to give over the top reactions to the performances of Magicians that are barely out of high school. You'd prefer that type of phoney production? I prefer Bob Kohler's honesty. Ross, you say " Flash Deck is, I'm afraid, so-so: the first two phases boil down to the magician guessing which one of four cards has been selected after two pumping questions, and the nice ending doesn't make up for the preamble". Have you ever performed this type of effect ( with outs )? Did you watch the explanation where Bob Sheets explained the psychology behind every single step? Ross, you say "As for Six Tricks In Two Minutes, I had to watch it twice to understand what had happened and even then I was unimpressed. (To be fair, it's never helpful when the selected card matches the "magician got it wrong" card so closely - in this case the Jack and Queen of Clubs. A contrast is far preferable...so why not re-shoot it?) ". Ross, David Williams on his Magic Farm did an Ambitious Card routine and in it an 8 of spades and an Ace of spaces was used. For us, maybe it would be great if there was a vast contrast, but in performance ( where you perform an effect 50 or more times in a week depending on how many shows you do ), you don't get perfect scenarios. People pick similar cards, people forget their cards, people try to mess you up. Reshoot it, so it's staged? Again, what is the benefit of "not" showing what happens in the real world? Ross, can you share with us your performance experience and an example of the set you perform so that we can better get an idea where you're coming from in not liking the effects that Bob has used for years to make a living ( I'm not getting that from the ad, I have friends that have told me about his performance set ). Ross, I think when you say effects, that I have performed and have had fantastic reactions to, are weak, I think it's only fair to tell us more about your own experiences in what you perform. People come here for reviews to, I hope, see if there is magic they'd like to learn or to stay away from. When you say you are "unimpressed" with an effect, I think folks should know if you performed it or not. Looking forward to hearing your responses. Best, Christopher
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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bekralik Inner circle Canada 1349 Posts |
Wow, that's quite a bit of work to do for an honest review! I would say the opposite should also be true, glowing reviews should also have qualifications - how do we know someone who raves about a dvd has performed the effects from it? And does that really matter? Everyone has different preferences and performing styles. If one person doesn't like an effect or do it justice, that doesn't mean someone else won't like it or make it workable, right? I think he has a valid point, if a master of a routine doesn't generate a reasonable response from a sleepy audience, then what hope can a mere mortal have? I still generally liked the set, but the best foot wasn't always put forward.
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-06-03 23:57, bekralik wrote: Well..I'm not an annonymous poster like yourself, so please forgive me that I don't address you by your given name. Care to tell us what that is? You said "if a master of a routine doesn't generate a reasonable response from a sleepy audience, then what hope can a mere mortal have?" This was a studio audience and the reactions are similar to ones that Magi that WORK for a living encounter. What ( after you tell us who you are ) are your experiences performing professionaly? Now, be honest. I'll be glad to exchange adresses and phone numbers and references with you ( privately of course, because...you perform magic for a living ) if you will. The only "job" I have is that as Magician. I post from that refference point. How about you? Why do I think instead of an exhange of verifiable information, there will be an exchange of....verbal nonsense. Nothing like arm chair "magicians" that profess knowldge of how the real world works.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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bekralik Inner circle Canada 1349 Posts |
"Why do I think instead of an exhange of verifiable information, there will be an exchange of....verbal nonsense."
You started the second exchange on your own. Sorry, Chris, too much work to do to backup an opinion, which really needs no backup because it is just that. Most people accept it for what it is, as I accept yours that you like this set without doing a full background check. If you actually read what I wrote, I also liked it, but in my opinion the audience wasn't very responsive. I'm sorry if you misunderstood this somehow and took offence from it. You've left me with the opinion that you don't like different views from yours after all. But perhaps I'm mistaken. You may call me Brian. |
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-06-04 01:03, bekralik wrote: Not at all. I like different views because that's how we learn ( at least me ). I just like people to be upfront about who they are. Anyone that doesn't care for the audinece, I just like them to qualify, as I have had the same audince and respect the produccer for not stacking the deck and having a "staged" audience. When someone sates an opinion about an audinece on a DVD shoot, I just would like them to share their experiences. And...I find... workers don't care. They only care about the effects and if they are worth learning and performing.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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DStachowiak Inner circle Baltimore, MD 2158 Posts |
One man's meat is another's poison.
I found these DVDs to be an exceptional value. I know how good these routines are, and the kind of reactions Bob gets with them in real life. I also realize this was a studio shoot, and there may have been repeated takes of each effect, which may have subdued the audience reactions a bit. On the other hand, I also know that there are vast differences in style from one magician to the next, and not everyone likes the same things. I appreciate Mr. Wellford taking the time and trouble to present his thoughts on this set, although I myself have to agree with the majority. I learned a lot from these, not just the tricks but also the solid advice on performing. Don
Woke up.
Fell out of bed. Dragged a comb across m' head. |
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Craig Petty V.I.P. UK 2298 Posts |
I do not have these DVD's although I do intend to get them and will review them when I get the time. However, I find this whole 'needing to know a person's experience in magic' debate quite interesting. To be honest when I read a review I do not care what experience a person has when writing the review it is their opinion that matters. Not everyone in magic is professional or semi professional, there are a great deal of people that perform just for fun, for their friends and family, to video cameras or even never perform and just learn magic for their own amusement. In fact their are probably less pro's and semi pro's than hobbyists.
Everyone can bring something to the table in a review, I have listened to reviews off people in the past that I know never perform but the review helped me with some issues I needed clearing up. Plus as there are so many hobbyists there will be people reading these reviews that want to know what a hobbyist thinks not a pro as they are looking for different things. I don't even mind if people don't use their real name in a review - I know a lot of people do not like to do this, it does not make their opinion any less valid. At the end of the day they paid money and have a right to tell people about the product they brought. I have purchased DVD's in the past and watched them been totally unimpressed and never tried any of the routines on the DVD. Does this mean I cannot write a review because I have not tried the routines out. It is the job of the person on the DVD to make me want to learn these routines. With so many effects out their I do not want to waste my time learning something that I just don't like the look of - I would rather move on to something I could get millage out of. that's just me, as I say I do not have these DVD's yet but I will buy them and probably contribute to this thread again with a review. I just find the whole review debate very interesting. Craig |
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amprice99 Regular user 102 Posts |
I believe I've read many reviews about the Tommy Wonder series as being a great set, yet the same reviewer stated he would never perform the effects. Like Craig said, you don't HAVE to perform the effects in order to like or dislike a DVD.
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
I have Tommy Wonder's set and cherrish them, but I don't perform any of the routines. I use his motives, and psychology, etc. that he goes into ( which also can be found in his books ).
You don't have to perform and be paid to have an opinion about anything in magic. But, to say an effect is dull or doesn't work or doesn't make sense, I think it's only fair to qualify it by saying if you have ever performed it or not. Whenever I say I don't care for something, I get hammered by people that think otherwise. You have to take the heat when you take a position. We're all adults and should have a little fun in breaking each others ***** a little bit on opinions, etc. I've said what I wanted to. I'm sure Sheets would laugh if he saw that people think the effects he's made a living with don't work. Some people think we didn't land on the moon and nothing you tell them will ever convince them otherwise. lol.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Cohiba Special user Michigan 749 Posts |
These discussions have occurred before.
I appreciate the alternative review Ross - after reading the original review (a while back), I was thinking these were a must buy. Now I'll probably do a little more research. Chris, I think I have to agree with some of the others that a review is really only an opinion. I feel that I am pretty good at determining if an effect is right for me just by watching it, regardless of lackluster audience reactions. A reviewer shouldn't have to go and learn a dvd full of tricks (that he may or may not be interested in) just to give an honest review. On the other hand, without trying it in the real world, you could be mistaken. That's where an opinion such as yours (with real world performance of the effect) may be valuable to cause someone to reconsider and actually give the effect a try. Opinions need to be taken for what they're worth. For me, an opinion holds a lot of weight when I'm familiar with that performers work. If I am a fan of their work and the types of effects they do, then their review holds much more weight. If their name is Cohiba or something, it doesn't hold much weight. However, if there's an overwhelming majority of Cohiba's saying a dvd is great, there's probably something to it. Knowing that your real name is Chris Kavanagh really means no more to me than if it was Ploppepia. No offense, but I am not familiar with your work. And others have stated (and I personally have witnessed) "professional" magicians whose opinions don't mean much to me. That being said, knowing you are a full-time magician does give you MORE credibility than Ploppepia. (However, I've come to respect the opinions of some Ploppepia's on this website because their thoughts / writing have given them credibility.) I am not saying your review is wrong, and I appreciate you taking the time to write it. I could very well agree with you after watching the dvd's. I've seen Sheets perform live and he killed. This is just another perspective of the qualifications required by reviewers. |
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Tom G Inner circle 2895 Posts |
I thought Ross was put on the stand to answer questions.... It was his take and that's it. If he wasn't impressed by the effects why would he spend the hours to learn them? I generally don't learn things well if I don't have a passion for them. I for one was somewhat disappointed in the set. I've seen Bob live a number of times and that's what I based my purchase on. He's a fantastic performer. Thought the set would be great magically as well as entertaining, somewhat like the Malone set. Bob seemed really subdued, not really funny and truthfully a couple of effects were a little confusing-in my opinion. It might have been better to tape him in his element. Sure there's some great stuff on the set, but it just didn't tweak me.
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Josho Special user Albany, New York 758 Posts |
Christopher,
I don't have the DVDs either (yet), but I have to comment on your response to Ross. On one hand, you make the (valid) point that the reactions shouldn't be staged, the spectators shouldn't prompted to make their responses bigger than they ordinarily would be. So your point seems to be that it's best this way -- with the spectators giving their honest reactions, which are, according to Ross -- and you don't seem to dispute this -- on the sad side. You then seem to want to know, a little defensively, what Ross's experiences have been performing these effects. I think this is a slightly contradictory criticism, if you're trying to say that Ross's review lacks merit. Ross bought a DVD in which a magician who is supposedly EXPERT with these particular effects -- a magician who has honed them over years and learned how to play them for the most impact, and is now sharing his wisdom -- performs them, but even given all that expertise, he doesn't seem to get much, if any, reaction out of his audience with them. I think that's a VERY powerful DISincentive to try out the effects. If the guy who's been performing the effect for years can't dependably get a good reaction with them, what chance does somebody have after a few days' or weeks' work? Now, that's not to say that some brilliance and originality might not turn these effects into sure-fire material. But generally when one buys a DVD, one is buying more than just effects: one is hoping to learn about the thinking that goes into their execution and why that thinking works. In this case, reading between the lines, it seems like Ross felt that the thinking was demonstrably faulty -- or the performer demonstrating the effects lacked the ability to adjust to the performance situation. Are those invalid feelings for Ross to express? You also seem to think it's premature for Ross to criticize the DVD unless he's learned and performed all the effects himself. I read over your review, and I don't see that you learned and performed all the effects yourself before COMPLIMENTING them. Why is it premature to criticize effects prior to learning and performing them, but it's not premature to compliment effects prior to learning and performing them? --Josh |
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
Josh, when you say "Why is it premature to criticize effects prior to learning and performing them, but it's not premature to compliment effects prior to learning and performing them?"
My answer is I didn't have to learn all the effects before trying them out because after 30 years, I know how powerful a Triumph effect or a color change, or pick a card and I'll divine it, can be on an audience. So when I see Bob start "Six Tricks In Two Minutes" and the card box he's holding instantly changes color, I know the impact that can have. I was surprised by it when he did it. I also know that you can perfom for one group of people and have them laughing and making over the top comemnts and move to the next group, with the same set you just killed with and...they act like zombies. Did something happen and the effects you just killed with lose their appeal? Josh, you said "But generally when one buys a DVD, one is buying more than just effects: one is hoping to learn about the thinking that goes into their execution and why that thinking works". Guess what? Bob goes into all of that. He doesn't just teach how to do the effects. He geos into the psychology of what they're thinking and why he does things a certain way. Some people don't like the new Bill Malone DVD set. Know why? THEY DIDN'T THINK THE AUDIENCE LIKED THE TRICKS. So..being that I perform many of those tricks, I asked...have they ever performed those tricks. The same scenario all over again. I'm not making these posts to try to convince someone that doens't like the set to change their mind. I'm writing to folks that may pass on the set thinking the magic on them isn't worth learning.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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giobbi1 Loyal user 252 Posts |
I was prepared to buy these DVD's based on all of the positive comments here on the Café. I recently saw Bob do a lecture and I have to say, based on his performances there, I walked out without without buying them. I found his performance flat, he flubbed several routines and I found the routines themselves to be somewhat confusing and not very strong. Granted, this was a room full of magicians, but I have also seen him at a convention and he killed. Take from that what you will.
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-06-04 11:01, giobbi1 wrote: Whne you saw him and "killed" what effects did he perform to make you think so.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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