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Steven Steele Chief of Staff 1868 Posts |
I have to chime in here and just say that I agree with both sides. Having said that, regardless, I don't really care how Bob Sheets interacts with the non-existent audience. I'm not watching the video for his performance or to learn his presentation. I'm really watching to see his thinking and how it fits into the context of the routine he's demonstrating. From that point of view, the DVDs are extremely valuable and something I really enjoyed and learned a few things from.
And as far as whether a trick is an improvement or good or whatever is really just a subjective statement. What one feels is terrible, somebody else might turn into a real performance gem. And for whatever reason, some really good things look terrible when performed by somebody else. When ever I read a review I always think of it as 'another person's opinion' and then determine whether or not I'll get any thing out of the offering. In the end only I can determine if a product is good or bad..and that decision only applies to me. Luckily differing opinions is what makes the world go round.
Coram Deo
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bekralik Inner circle Canada 1349 Posts |
I think that's how cyber-bullying begins ...
I've got all 3 in the set and have no problems looking at them individually since they are sold separately and as stand-alone acts. And a lot of the same points raised apply across all 3. And the bottom line is I don't have to be an actor to tell you if I liked a movie I watched. Like it or not, reactions of people around us affect our reactions and impressions. I guess if you believe something is supposed to be funny, but people around you aren't laughing, then you naturally want to know what the reason is. Why do you think that is? Do you think the audience was 'off' or do you think, as has been suggested, some of the routines were confusing? |
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Maestro Special user 801 Posts |
I have the DVD in question and can definitely say the concerns raised are legitimate, especially about flash deck. Also, I love the premise of 6 tricks in 2 minutes, however if I were to perform it I would definitely restructure it to make it less confusing.
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
If this set was released a couple of years ago, I don't think I would have been this big on "have you performed these tricks".
But, after the Bill Malone and Paul Wilson sets were released and people were saying the audiences were bored by the magic and not reacting, that the effects were weak, I'm starting to question why DVD sets are purchased. I think it's fun to debate these things. If everyone agrees, what could be learned? I watched the 3 ball trick ( I pass over those in DVD's 'cause I don't like them and people that like them...tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. ). Well, keep in mind I don't like 3 ball tricks. I didn't have a clue as to what he was doing. The pattter confused me, but...I don't like those tricks, so what do I know. Hey, when I didn't like Trabucco Holdout, where were all you guys to defend me for having an opinion? lol.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Futureal Inner circle 1695 Posts |
I too was really disapointed by this set. They didn't come close to living up to the hype IMO.
1) They were advertised as a complete "show" on each disc - they weren't, they were just three tricks edited together. On disc three he even says hello to the audience after the first trick and before the second! Obvious edit-job. There aren't any call-backs or references to previous tricks, or payoffs at the end etc. They're *not* three "shows". 2) They are advertised as being hilarious, "non stop lines", etc. Bob's a funny guy, but this didn't come off on the DVDs. Totally agree with the previous poster who said that his sponge rabbit routine was just the same as everyone else does it. It's not even as funny as Daryl's simple routine which has some additional in-built comedy moments. 3) Each performance section is 10-12 minutes long. That's it. The whole set should be on ONE dvd, not three. 4) This is a personal thing, but he seems to use a lot of gimmicked decks that are only good for one trick ... Not my style, but if this works for you then great. I wish Bob had done an L+L DVD - having done this so many times they almost certainly would have been able to get a better product that more accurately shows how funny Bob is in front of a real audience. - if you like the set, fantastic. For me they were a total letdown, unfortunately. |
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DStachowiak Inner circle Baltimore, MD 2158 Posts |
Quote:
Futureal said: I think part of the problem may be that people are hoping to see what a live Bob Sheets performance is like, and you just aren't going to get that in a studio. When Bob is "in his element", the situation is NUTS! I have seen Bob working a bar, filling drink orders, doing magic, pouring an "upside down margarita" in a patron's mouth (In a barber chair, no less) doing more magic, with the crowd 4 deep at the bar, and keeping the crowd entertained, and good natured, through the entire experience. Any performance done in the studio can only APPROXIMATE what Bob does live, because to capture "The Bob Sheets Experience" accurately would be like catching lightning in a bottle. Quote:
Futureal said: I had this same reservation at first, but one of those decks, the one used for "Intuition", is actually a nearly straight deck with a very versatile locator feature, which can be used in many different ways, including any impromptu trick you choose, not just for the routine given on the DVD. Don
Woke up.
Fell out of bed. Dragged a comb across m' head. |
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rubadubdub Regular user 153 Posts |
Like a lot of people on here Chris, I am amazed to find you have the time to know about nearly all the new releases and have an opinion on them.
Good luck to you mate if you have a shed load of greenbacks to be able to buy all the new stuff. Do you regularly add lots of these new routines to your rep? Or do you have a stock repertoire and just enjoy watching tons of dvds? Im just curious as I find I spend most of my time polishing up stuff ive been doing for years. Kind regards Rubadubdub with 3 chicks in a tub |
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
I've posted this before, but I have 25 effects I do (I don't perform 25 effects in a gig. 5 Tops. I think with a fun personality and good routining, you can get allot of mileage out of that ).
So, I get allot of DVD's looking for anything that improves on those. A move, a sleight, a line etc. I very rarely add something new. If I do, I take away something else. The goal for years is to have every single one of the 25 be closers. Things you'd be hard pressed to follow with. I've made a bit of a game out of it and it's been a fun journey. I already have copper/silver/brass routine. Bob had a way of getting into it that was better than what I was doing. For me, the set was worth it for that. It may seem small to other folks and I understand you pay hard earned money for a DVD and you want it to meet your criteria for a good purchase. I do what I think is a great triumph effect and it's with a regular deck. Well.. Bob's "Gotcha" is gaffed, but it's fiendish. Also the 6 Six Tricks in Two Minutes. Also I make sure everything is stand alone...but try to thread as many as I can together so they flow one into the other. Deck switches, etc. help accomplish that. I can see how anal retentive I am about tweaking what I do. If I could get the 25 to be where I thought nothing could be improved, I could stop getting DVD's and posting on the Café. I'm sure many folks will now be committed to helping me;-) And I do love watching professional magicians work, so I love watching DVD's. I have DVD's that I don't perform any of the material from, but I love watching them from time to time. My dad was ill for a few years and we had lots of hospital visits, Dr. appts. etc. So, you spend hours a day/night with "down time". I'd watch DVD's, post on the Café, etc. I guess I just got used to it, but he's passed now and so I'm sure my visits here will start to wind down soon.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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rubadubdub Regular user 153 Posts |
Cheers fella.
Nice open honest answer. Best Rubadubdub |
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
Oh, and I do sell allot. So...if I sell a DVD, it doesn't mean I didn't like it. I take notes on anything I'm going to use and in time, I don't have to keep the DVD(s). There are some that I cherrish and won't sell, but I can't keep them all and I don't have unlmited funds.
Posted: Jun 5, 2008 7:07pm Jeff McBride's new DVD set is being reviewed. Some folks love the set, other don't. One person wrote: "I felt more like Jeff wasn't quite as rehearsed and prepared as he has been on previous videos..... The magic also just didn't seem completely polished. Many of his moves looked more like those of a new magician who is performing for the first time than a seasoned professional putting his best street magic on video". The differnece in the reviews is startling. Anyone have a view on this recent phenomena we're seeing?
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Robert M Inner circle 2482 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-06-05 13:07, Christopher Kavanagh wrote: I can identify with this. Robert |
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immr1drfl New user 93 Posts |
I wish Bob had done an L+L DVD - having done this so many times they almost certainly would have been able to get a better product that more accurately shows how funny Bob is in front of a real audience.
The L+L audience is the worst that audience puts me to sleep every time. Matthew J. Dowden Party Animal was filmed in a bar/club and that was a great dvd with real reactions, and the production was great. I like Chris and his reviews he has not steered me wrong yet. Sorry about your dad Chris, but keep the reviews coming if you can. I like to watch dvds and check out preformance styles and learn a little more. I go to the Castle every Wednesday because I love Magic and want to learn more. - |
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Tim Trono Inner circle 1114 Posts |
I'll stay out of the debate as to whether these good or not - I have my opinion and have shared it elsewhere - we all have different opinions and that is cool. What is intriguing about this post however is this... are we buying magic DVDs to be entertained or to learn? I know of some DVDs where the reactions are great (they've filmed them 50 times) but the magic just sucks. I think it is extremely hard if not impossible to capture TRUE reactions. I have seen Bill Malone, Marc Spelmann, Daryl, Bob Sheets, etc. etc. live many times and they kill... when you see the reactions on the DVDs they are just not as strong. Does that mean the magic is bad? No. Quite the contrary. People change when you turn on a camera (either get dull or over react). For me personally, I do not determine whether an item is strong by the DVD reaction... I have enough knowledge from working for real people over a number of years to be able to gauge what will play and what won't (for ME personally - and it's important to understand what works for you may not work for me and visa versa - as an example I can't carry off the funny stuff Bob Sheets or Bill Malone can). Thus I DO think performing experience has validity in the strength of an opinion, It doesn't mean a guy doing magic for 50 years makes your opinion (if you have been doing magic 6 months) right or wrong... it just means that maybe he has more expertise to bring to the table. I'd rather take my car to get fixed by someone who does it daily for 20 years as opposed to someone who tinkers on cars every once in a great while. What I personally try to get out of a DVD is WHAT the handling looks like period (that's why I think DVDs like the Sankey instructional DVDs are fine... they show me what it looks like and then allow me to learn the item if I think it will work for my persona). I almost ignore the reactions (or lack of). Also obviously the handling and subtleties are what is key for me. If you want to JUST be entertained that's perfectly fine but you just have to be truthful to yourself and acknowledge this fact - and the fact is there are probably better ways to be entertained than magic instructional DVDs.
Tim |
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Amiable Regular user 153 Posts |
I've been watching this thread and then the DVDs, put some more thought into them, and I hope to write a(nother) review that allow potential workers another perspective.
For your background, I'm an amateur, and abit on the sleight-monkey side of things. I watched the DVDs a couple of times, and have performed selected effects for my usual test audiences but not "real audiences". For me, merit in magic is measured by the astonishment it creates for the spectator. What did I hope to learn from the DVDs? I have great admiration for full routines that make each individual effects much fuller and richer than they would be individually. Therefore the "Acts" structure, the glowing review by Chris, and Sheets' reputation had me sold, and I got the entire set. There are three things I wanted to get out of this: I want to learn how to structure a complete act, I want to see Bob Sheets in his elements, and I'm looking to pick up routines that fit me. General The production is on-par with what I expected for a magic instruction DVD. Each DVD is 45 minutes long, and Sheets demonstrate and explain three routines. The shots are clear enough, and thank goodness there's none of that funny flashing things that some recent "posh" magic DVDs have (those makes me dizzy!) Because many of the effects involve particularly stacked decks, it would have been a nice touch to have a "cheat sheet" included in the DVD-case. Material "Acts". I had high expectations about these "acts", and I mistakenly thought that within each act, the routines flow from one to another - they don't. (Exception: in Act 1, Marked could be a follow-up to Intuition) This goes beyond that they're independent routines - Act 3 presents Flash Deck and 6 Tricks in 2 Minutes. Both of these require a separate gaffed deck, and I can't see these two routines being presented to the same audience. In the DVDs, no transition from routine to routine is shown. The material did not meet my expectations in terms of learning how to assemble routines into acts (and rightly so, because it was not even attempted). Performances. The performances themselves are... lacklustre. Sheets perform for 4 audience members throughout the 3 DVDs, and some of them just don't seem to care very much. (The audience in Daryl's Revelation series was watching 300 effects being presented in a row, and they look fresher than these guys here.) The performances didn't give me a lot of enthusiasm to learn the routines, and... I didn't find Sheets very humorous here. Some of the things he says and does, in fact, I find a turn-off: like constantly referring to Kohler as "the big guy" ("let's make sure the big guy sees the card", "it's important that the big guy also sees the card", "the big guy is laughing"), calling one of the audience a slut (even in jest...), or the presentation in the "Intuition" routine. It's weird to see the instructor trying so hard but ending so flat. Maybe I just wouldn't have enjoyed Sheets as a performer? Routines & Explanation. Every routine was clearly explained, and I thought that was awesome. The subtleties, common outs, and unexpectancies are covered, which is great. What I learn was the thoughts that went into having this in "hospitality" (I wish there's actual live footage) - resetting between each run is planned and explained. A common feature throughout the entire collection of routines is that they're easy and heavily gaffed. I think a worker doing one table after another can appreciate not having to do 15 DLs and passes in a row. The routines, once you have the gaffs made up and sufficiently practiced, are probably foolproof. (I do not have Sheets' style, so I'm coming up with my own presentation.) Onto the routines! Since there was no logical arrangement to any of the "acts", I'm going to organize them by genre. I've skipped over the descriptions of the effects, since they're both advertised and talked about in Chris' review. Cards. There are 6 card routines in the series, Intuition (DVD1), Marked (DVD1), Gotcha (DVD2), Red Hot Mama(DVD2), Flash Deck(DVD3), 6 Tricks in 2 Minutes (DVD3). All of them are full-deck routines except for Marked, which is a packet trick. Every routine was carefully thought-out, and if I have to do a trick perfectly 20 times a night, night-in-night-out, in front of all kinds of people, they are the kind of routines I'd choose. On the flip side, most of the entire decks are heavily gaffed, and the method are often revealed in the routine's climax. Because of this, except for Marked, I won't want to do two of these in a row. The effects are sometimes funny, always practical, but doesn't produce a magical astonishment in me. The only routine of them that I would retain in my repertoire is Marked, and perhaps Gotcha as a Triumph variant. There just are so many other fine card routines out there that suits my needs better (starts & end clean, astonishment) As I mentioned earlier, I enjoy effects flowing into effects and routines flowing into routines, and none of these specialty deck can let me do that. Sleights. The other three routines, Bunnies (DVD1), Triple Transpo (DVD2), and 3 Ball Trick (DVD3) are sleight routines with Sponge Bunnies, CSB, and balls respectively. You'll need to get 2 big & handful of baby sponge bunnies (Goshman's 3D multiplying bunnies work well here), a CopperSilverBrass coin set, and 3 rubber balls ~1 inch in diameter. Some sleight-of-hand required. Bunnies are inherently fun to do (cute, and takes place in spectator's hands). Sheets' 3 phase routine is not special in terms of its structure - it's a standard sponge routine. There are some thoughts on sleightless handling, which some might appreciate, and there's also some tips on getting reactions from the audience. This is a really short routine where the climax came too quickly, and I think bringing in the bunnies (and some of them out) with a Sanada ("see the hole? You know who lives there?")) would have been a cute touch. Triple Transpo... I don't see anything special in the handling or the presentation here. In fact, it's almost boring in its play-by-play. 3-Ball is awfully confusing. I didn't follow the internal logic. Ascanio talks about magic being not having a path from the initial conditions to the final conditions; I have no idea what the initial conditions are supposed to be in the cluttered-with-too-many-phases routine. Besides being very confusing, 3-Ball just didn't seem a particularly good piece of magic - those hands must have dipped into each pocket semi-announced for a good half-dozen times in the routine (and we know that they're doing something in there). It was incredibly straight-forward to reconstruct from watching the performance, after I figured out what the effect was supposed to be. That said, this is the first time I've seen someone doing this kind of routine, so it may be just how the genre is? Did I learn what I hoped to learn? I had hoped to learn about structuring acts, see a nice performance by Sheets, and learn a fully-fleshed routine or two. I was disappointed by how the routines have no relationship to one another, and the not too wonderful performances. I like the premise of 6 tricks in 2 minutes and will use that to structure a set of effects, I already do a version of Bunnies, and I really like Marked as a in-the-hands packet trick that is serio-comical. Intuition can be easily adapted to a non-gaffed deck, and played well as a throwaway quick gag. The other thing I did not expect to learn was how a working pro would think - quick reset, infallibility, and practicality, for a constantly changing audience. I can see this set being very useful for a magicless server/bartender who wants to add some magic to their work without too much practice. Of the set, I'd recommend DVD-1 over the other 2. Hope the review gives you another perspective from a "non-worker"! |
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Ross W Inner circle UK 1779 Posts |
Lest it be thought that my main gripe was with the catatonic audience, it wasn't -although I'll say again that it didn't help: I wasn't so keen on the tricks, the tips and the production values either, a view that seems to be shared by Amiable, above.
When video instruction first came along in the 80s, it was enough to have a guy showing stuff to the camera and explaining it. Sometimes there was another magician there. (I'm thinking of the desperately dull Ken Krenzel tapes when he talks to Gary Ouellet but there's loads of others). This was okay at the time but times have moved on. Posts complaining of "flashy video techniques" and so on remind me of people who say, "Why can't they just read the news on TV like they used to: I don't need all these confusing graphics!" People: it's 2008. One of these DVDs costs around £20 (nearly $40) and lasts less than an hour. Personally, I expect more than I got from the Sheets DVD. And no - I don't expect hysterical audience reactions. Look at the Ammar series. Mike Ammar does not have Bob Sheet's "zany" reputation, and his jokes are often terrible...but at least they laugh say "wow" every now and then! |
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Domino Magic Special user 999 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-06-06 02:12, Tim Trono wrote: We are buying them for both. It's been mentioned several times already in this thread - there is an expectation about what to expect from Sheets. For many of us that expectation is simply not met. There are those of us who feel that we were let down in both areas - he wasn't entertaining and the material he brought to the project wasn't that good. All of the "negative" comments on this thread have not been "negative" and in fact should be taken as constructive criticism. No one went on a rampage of saying they were ripped-off or so-and-so sucks. I was watching an interview with Steven Spielberg last month talking about his great movies and joked that from time-to-time there's a bad one (1941 specifically). That one bad movie doesn't make him a bad director and although the public didn't care for that one movie doesn't mean we didn't see his future movies. This morning I just read a review for Adam Sandler's new movie and it stated how a 7 minute Monty Python sketch was funnier than the 2 hours of this movie. That doesn't mean Sandler isn't funny or isn't going to have better projects. The point is just about everyone who posted a less than glowing review of this IS a fan of Sheets and will continue to support his future projects. I know I will. The consumers are speaking and the artists, producers, distributors of DVDs should listen and not try to justify why we should like it. |
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Tim Trono Inner circle 1114 Posts |
Hi Domino. By no means am I trying to justify why you or anyone should like these DVD or even persuade you or anyone in regard to that. As I stated at the beginning of my post "we all have different opinions and that is cool". My point if I did not convey it correctly was just to point out that far to often I think we are looking to be entertained as opposed to learning- nothing wrong with that but maybe a magic instructional DVD is not the best source since you will most likely never get true reactions. I've seen some DVDs where people are screaming and when I look at the material it is just trash... it wouldn't fool anyone in the real world. I know that from performing for people.
It's funny, but as an example, the CSB routine has received a few very negative comments here. Bob showed me this at FFFF a number of years ago and structurally it is in my opinion probably one of the best handlings of this effect out there (with the exception of the Malone routine)... no pocket switches or weird stuff with the pocket, short/sweet, etc. I've USED CSB for real people and the truth is that people DO find it suspicious when you are going to your pocket. Bob has dealt with that. Again, I'm not trying to persuade you to like these. I'm just pointing out that Bob really works for real people and knows what works and what doesn't. I believe he tried to share that here. I do agree with your comparison to Steven Spielberg (though I'd add a few other movies in there LOL). Also, I don't think you'll ever get the true reaction as I noted on a magic DVD so if entertainment is a goal most likely you will be disappointed. Look at even ones where there IS reaction such as the Malone DVDs... if you see Bill work live the reactions are a million times better... people are crying laughing while getting kicked in the head by really solid magic. This debate is interesting and is why I am an advocate of the Sankey approach of just performing to the camera (on his single trick releases)... its show you what the handling looks like. But you don't get the reactions (either fake over the top or not great reactions). I've had a few magic friends advise they felt the reactions are crucial to show but it's funny that I just don't feel you ever get real reactions so isn't that creating either a false sense of security or a false sense that the item doesn't play? Tim Posted: Jun 6, 2008 6:06pm I was thinking more about this and talking to one of my magic buddies. He brought up a great point. He feels that the performances on a DVD are a validation. So if you buy a DVD see some people going crazy (it may have been filmed 50 times to get these) you feel good about your purchase- it validates the material, it validates the purchase, it validates that you too can be cool if you own this. If you watch it and it has a lackluster performance you don't get the confidence that this may really work. The unfortunate part is that I think it can give a false sense of security OR it can give a false sense that the material is not worthy. Obviously most magic DVD producers are filing in studio as it gives them much more control as far as sound, lighting, etc. But then you have to bring in the audience. Then you are stuck. If they don't react fully you are screwed. Look at the Spelmann DVDs... in real life Marc just slays them. But in DVDs the reactions are just OK. So one may not give the credibility to the material they should. Anyway, interesting thread. Tim |
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Domino Magic Special user 999 Posts |
Great points Tim. I agree.
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Ross W Inner circle UK 1779 Posts |
I think you're right, Tim. I'd add, though, that a producer or director, faced with a recalcitrant audience, should have the b*lls to say, "that's great guys, but let's do it again and this time, lots of enthusiasm, eh!!?" It's pretty basic and Domino's right - we buy them for entertainment AND instruction - or at least I expect most of HOPE to be entertained as well!
I guess it's simply a budget question. Bigger audience = bigger budget. That said, it's not that hard to film bar magic. It would not have been THAT hard to film Bob Sheets in a few bars, getting stuck in and showing a rowdy crowd what he's made of! Sure, it would have taken more work, a bit more time, but not much more money; and might have resulted in a classic! |
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Futureal Inner circle 1695 Posts |
Agree.
If something's worth doing it's worth doing right. |
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