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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » New UK Law/ Mediums Fortune Tellers (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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themindreader
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Double standards in the Daily Mail - what ever next!!
aukt
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Quote:
On 2008-06-03 15:02, themindreader wrote:
Double standards in the Daily Mail - what ever next!!


best quote on this board in months Smile
J.Buddy
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Auktionman007,
can you particularize your reasoning for the above statement in connection with "best quote on this board in months" comment. Just an older fella wondering how that flew right over my head furtively. Thank you in advance to anyone else who can help.
J.B.
Rediscovering the magician inside.
Chris K
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I believe he is stating that the Daily Mail is full of double standards, all the time. Please correct me if I am wrong.
NJJ
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From my own research into the new UK laws for a newspaper here in Australia there are really two issues at play:-

1) There is a concern that there are many dishonest people within the industry giving the rest a bad name. This is true of many industries and is often the reason for the introduction of regulation. e.g. here is Oz, tow truck drivers now have strong regulation due to a large number of dodgy operators.

2) Psychics need to be able to prove the specific claims they make when asking for money. e.g. if a fortune teller says "Pay me 10 pounds and I'll tell the name of your husband to be" then they have to be able to prove that claim. In other words, psychic businesses are now being required to more strictly adhere to advertising laws that apply to all advertisers.

As Experimentalist suggest, claiming that you will use a specific method of divination for a fee is not a false claim. e.g. "I will read your tarot" is not a false claim.

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/bu......7725.ece
http://www.scarborougheveningnews.co.uk/......=2841691
Jon_Thompson
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There's a really tacky advert on UK TV (TMF on Freeview, but it may be elsewhere) that asks people to send a text message to a number and in return for something like £1.50 a machine sends the name of the man/woman you'll marry. It strikes me that vacuous services like this could be illegal under the new legislation.
Harris0n
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On 2008-06-04 02:05, Jon_Thompson wrote:
There's a really tacky advert on UK TV (TMF on Freeview, but it may be elsewhere) that asks people to send a text message to a number and in return for something like £1.50 a machine sends the name of the man/woman you'll marry. It strikes me that vacuous services like this could be illegal under the new legislation.


I imagine that such a 'service' will already carry a 'for entertainment purposes only' disclaimer somewhere in the small print.
"There are times when the truth is necessary and times when myth-making is necessary." Nick Cave
teejay
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On 2008-06-03 14:06, Doctor REvil wrote:
Interesting to note, the link for the Mail has a link for your daily horoscope....with no disclaimer....


That's the best this year!
Nice one, Doc
ROTFL
clarissa35f
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All it takes is saying.." You do understand that according to the law... I HAVE to say, that this fortune telling thing is complete Hooey * wink, wink*, after all..NO one can really tell the future... * wink, wink* This is just for entertainment only... * wink, wink*.." " Now then, having complied with the new law...let's see what the tarot says about your coming year...."

The law as I see it cannot really have an effect because most of the people that are taken by false mediums, and false fortune tellers, really want to believe in it.

They will just buy into the " well, he or she HAS to say what he or she just said to comply with the law... but we BOTH know that he or she has real powers."

I just do not see how this protects anyone.

A second issue. The Catholic Church in exchange for a contribution will hold Novenas for the recently departed. I myself am not Catholic, but I have seen the effect that a series of Novenas can have in assisting the ones that remian behind to gain closure. Sometimes for $400 or $ 500 they gain the same closure that might have taken years of therapy.

Is the priest now supposed to say.." This has no real power, no value...the Novena is for entertainment purposes only."

If he does then a case can be made that it interferes with freedom of religious belief and expression...if it doesn't then it's selective prosecution.

I think this is a disaster waiting to happen... To quote Meet the Robinsons" I do not think....this plan...was fully thought through."
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous>
"There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn>
Tony Iacoviello
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What about investment counselors, or any other type of counselor?
tomterm8
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I've read the new regulations, and they really aren't all that significantly different from what we have already in the UK (BTW, the regulations are the implementation of an european directive, so apply more or less to the entire EU).

In essence, the behaviour required is that you do not make claims that you know to be untrue. In essence, you should not act fradulently. Since this behaviour is already unlawful, with regard to the Fraud Act 2006, it has little or no effect on mentalists, or even psychics.

The regulations do not require a statement to be the truth, they require that you do not decieve. That's a subtle distinction, but in essence if you believe a statement to be truthful, you can't be in breach of these regulations. (further, they must prove that you know the statement is not truthful).

Further, if you are acting out of belief, you are protected by the Human rights Act 1998, which is the implementation of fundamental EU constitutional law.

Just my 2p's worth.
themindreader
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On 2008-06-03 15:44, Lemniscate wrote:
I believe he is stating that the Daily Mail is full of double standards, all the time. Please correct me if I am wrong.


I am. I think that the Daily Mail is a disgraceful newspaper.

Simon
clarissa35f
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Tom thank you for your very informed post. I can understand the matter clearer now, But it just seems that such law falls short of actually having any effect. How can anyone prove whether a person accused of that charge is insincere? How does one prove they " KNEW" they were ebeing deceitful? All it takes is to say that they believe they have actual psychic powers. It seems to me the only person that can prove them otherwise would have to be a Mind reader.
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous>
"There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn>
tomterm8
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Well, it's rather like the law that prevents the government selling peerages. Difficult, but not impossible to prove. For example, a serious medium that used all kinds of trick gizmos (I won't go into detail) might leave some physical evidence of deception behind. Similarly, if you could show a psychic had invested in a private investigator to find out facts, and conduct a hot reading, then that would be evidence.

For these kinds of crimes, an offence is often proved by a combination of factors. For example, if someone has in their possession large numbers of cold reading books, posts on forums, there are records of him/her stating things like "psychics are all a load of con men" it is possible that this could provide enough factual evidence.

It's generally easier with mediums; a typical tactic would be to get a stooge to pretend that someone (i.e. a grandfather) is dead when they are not. This, along with a claim of talking to the dead, would tend to provide some evidence of deception and may be sufficient.

Fundamentally, issues of burden of proof are involved. I doubt anyone (i.e. psychic or medium) is ever going to actually be prosecuted for this offence except in extreme circumstances ( B***ds who steal the life savings of some poor victim). However, a civil right of action is established, allowing money to be returned to the victim through the equitable theory of restitution. That is, if a court can be convinced, on the balance of the evidence, that the claims made were deceitful, the court will in equity prevent the wrongdoer benefiting from these claims.

This burden of proof is lower than the criminal burden, however, my understanding is that it is still a high burden because it implies fraud and the courts may consider that such a claim should be treated with near criminal seriousness (indeed, fraud is one of the few civil actions that require trial in the high court, with a right to a jury, and this right MAY apply in the cases under discussion)

I would, however, respectfully submit that the nature of the action of the court may depend on many factors, for example a psychic carrying out a reading for a reasonable fee would be unlikely to suffer, however, someone extracting large amounts of money out of the vulnerable would be, perhaps, find the court unsympathetic. Of course, no case law exists, so this is merely my reading of a statutory instrument and can not be considered definitive at this time.

Normal disclaimers exist, in so far as this post is not to be taken as legal advice, and is without prejudice in any way.

( EDIT: it's importent to remember this is general law, and applies to all aspects of business life. That's the reason it doesn't really have a great fit to psychics etc. It is more geared to dodgy second hand car dealers and salespeople. )
Chris K
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On 2008-06-06 16:00, clarissa35f wrote:
How can anyone prove whether a person accused of that charge is insincere? How does one prove they " KNEW" they were ebeing deceitful? All it takes is to say that they believe ...


It is an interesting conundrum to be sure. I would, in my rather limited understanding, like to put forth an analogy of perjury (lying under oath). How do they know you were lying? How sure do they have to be? One such example is that some of the charges against baseball player Barry Bonds has to do with lying to the grand jury (according to local newspapers, I personally hate the topic and have not actually read the indictment). They can prove the people who gave stuff to him knew it was steroids but I have yet to see any evidence presented to the public that indicates that he knew, yet the indictment goes forward.

I have heard that it is this kind of thinking that results in relatively few perjury charges, but there are some.

It's one of those things that is interesting to me on an abstract level but seems so incredibly arbitrary that it shakes my faith in the legal system. It will be interesting to see what, if any, effect this will have.

Lem
Daniel Nicholls
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Surely the law extends to all religious leaders then? I'm not saying it should. I go to church and wouldn't want my minister locked up but surely the rules have to apply to everybody.
Close your eyes. Open your senses.
themindreader
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On 2008-06-08 21:26, Daniel Nicholls wrote:
Surely the law extends to all religious leaders then? I'm not saying it should. I go to church and wouldn't want my minister locked up but surely the rules have to apply to everybody.


Yup - the law should apply to everybody. But I bet it won't.
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