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Tina I Regular user Oslo/ Norway 194 Posts |
During the past few months I have learned that water, usually in the form of saliva, is a secret. In fact it costs around $30 to find that out. The stunning secrets is that stuff will stick to moisture on your hand and moisture will cause cardboard to bend (This is, according to the vendor, a stunning discovery made in the Philippines no less).
Now, to be fair: The two effects are cleverly marketed and look good on the demos. What they don't say anything about is things like angles and the sheer time it takes. One of them is so angle sensitive that it's almost only suitable on stage and the other work pretty much in the same pace as paint drying. What kinda ticks me off about this is they they are marketed as there are a new amazing magical secret. Ok, *all* secrets in magic are pretty dull and obvious but they are usually sold with *something* that adds some value but in these days of easy DVD making you can actually say "Lick your hand... that'll be twenty five bucks please". My claim is that you do not get what you pay for when buying these kind of tricks and it borders to scams. And what's even worse is that they open up for fights about who 'own' the methods and you might find your self in the bizarre situation of being accused of 'stealing' for doing the most obvious thing. In the 'old' days you would typically go to magic shop, have an effect demoed (in real time) and based on that decide whether to buy it or not. Although the entire thing still might be a disappointment at least it was honestly demoed. Today you are faced with fast paced, heavily edited videos that often does not tell the truth. And the vendors will most often refuse to take it back because you now know 'the secret' which, as it turns out, is what you're buying. My examples in this post are from two actual 'tricks', each to be found on it's own DVD and both comes with loads of suggestions for routines. However, it's the 'secret' you are paying for. So is it really justifiable to take a well known principle or physical principle, call it "a new stunning secret" and sell it to gullible magicians for a hefty price? Isn't "a stunning new discovery" something new by definition? Is cards bending due to moisture a new stunning discovery? So I have this idea I want to sell; a marvelous barehanded coin matrix (NO SLEIGHTS REQUIRED) because I have discovered this new amazing highly magical thing and it has never been published before. The coins *really* travel and you can (almost) show your hands epmty (well,from the back anyway) on every request. But since you all are such nice people, here is the super secret: Strawberry jam! Put strawberry jam in the palms of your hand and the coin will stick to it. That'll be $46.99 thank you. I'd love to put out a two hour DVD on this but my camera doesn't work... |
BrianMillerMagic Inner circle CT 2050 Posts |
I would say that it's not just the 'secret' you're paying for when you purchase a product. As you said, the products come with loads of suggestions for routines. A great deal of what you're paying for is the creative thought that went into the routines, handling, and presentations. Someone who knows of this particular 'secret' will be able to identify it from a demo video. Then they will either purchase it and know what to expect, or not purchase it, in either case no harm done. If someone does not know of this particular 'secret' and sees a demo video that they find intriguing and something they would like to be able to perform, they will purchase it and discover the 'secret' that they didn't know before, so it was a worthwhile purchase. The point is that if you do know a 'secret' but don't recognize it from a demo video, chances are you wouldn't have thought to use that 'secret' for that purpose, so the purchase is one that opens your eyes to new uses for a 'secret' you already knew.
There are undoubtedly a lot of bad products out there, but I still respectfully disagree with the bulk of what you've said. |
chias Regular user 144 Posts |
Brian I agree. You are not paying just for the secret, but also the routines, handling, presentations and all the misc tips that build up to a good act.
That's why I only buy products made by reputable and accomplished magicians, and give companies/manufacturers that call everything a "new stunning secret" or "never-seen-before magic" a miss. |
clarissa35f Veteran user 363 Posts |
I stick with L and L Publishing, Fooler Doolers, and the ones that put out World's Greatest magicians. Also Jeff Sanders. Usually if I do not know the company I ask around first... There are people I have come to trust in the community, that have not steered me wrong yet.
I think with the potential for chicanery when you trade in secrets, it's important to have a group of magicians you trust... or ask at a forum you like..( Looks around confused) before you plunk hard earned money down on what may end up not being for you. That said, When you pay for something you are not only paying for the method, you are also paying for everything that goes with it...routines.... handlings... misdirection suggestions, timing, acting... Psychology, subtleties etc... All that glitters is not gold. Sometimes it's Gold, sometimes it's something else...
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous> "There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn> |
Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
I would buy the "you are also paying for everything that goes with it" point of view IF I were honestly apprised of the fact that I was buying a re-hashed 1911 idea.
Further, there can't be much better "misdirection" than the ruse that you can't return the effect because "now you know the secret", especially when it's sponge balls, let's say. This goes double for shoot-from-the-hip and put it on the market without any field tests to ensure it works in the real world "magic" that wouldn't work with any routine known to man. I agree with Tina...
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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clarissa35f Veteran user 363 Posts |
I understand what you mean. And I understand Tina's complaint. That is why it is important to do your research first. There are tons of magicians Online that may have tried what you intend to buy, and may have had good, bad, or indifferent experiences.
We have a forum here, with threads devoted to Products and reviews of same. There are other forums where you can request a review of a product you are thinking of buying. I can understand the feeling of Not getting your money's worth. But... I have to say that had she done more research she might have realized that the product she bought was not for her. I stick with established dealers, I stick with magicians I trust... if some other magician I never heard of puts something out, I ask first... Magic IS expensive. Perfect example... I was thinking of getting " A sucker is Born Every minute" By Oz Pearlman as a free bonus item at another website. It's a version of the " Bank Night" effect. I like Pearlman, I trust Pearlman, I got his Born To perform Card magic for my daughter. When I discussed the effect with a mmentalist friend he told me.." but...don't you already have Mark Wilson's Complete Course ??" he reminded me something I had forgotten. That Book has a mentalist section. If I had not spoken to him I may have wasted a bonus on something I already had readily available. I picked up this habit while playing MMOG's ( massively Multiplayer Online Games) In Video Games you also " get what you pay for." and you really cannot return it and say.." it's not what I thought it would be." the merchant will tell you.." There are a dozen websites with info on these games, not my fault you didn't do your homework." When you are dealing in secrets as in the magic profession, you need to remember there Can be no money back guarantees. So it behooves us to be well informed. Caveat Emptor Rules.
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous> "There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn> |
Tina I Regular user Oslo/ Norway 194 Posts |
Clarissa, I get your point but I'm not sure you get mine
What annoys me is that what I'm talking about is a very accepted practice. When it comes to selling magic tricks anything goes; from a slight omission to downright lies. When an effect is extremely angle sensitive why not say so? Why pitch it as a perfect closeup effect when you in practice has some 20-30 degree safe angle? Because the closeup market is much much bigger than the stage/ parlor market. "This amazing new" is also often a downright lie. When something is pitched as new and amazing it shouldn't be a principle that's been known to man since the invention of paper. It's far from new... it's not even new to use it magic. It's a scam plain and simple and the magic community seem to not care. It's like pickpockets (the thief kind); if people get their stuff stolen we often blame them self for it for not being careful. Or if you're being hustled in some way; you're probably stupid that let it happen. And in a funny way it slowly turns into acceptance of the bad guys. But back to magic dealers and the example of the angle sensitive thing: It's simply not nice to call an effect a closeup thing when it's not suitable for a 'normal' closeup setting (say more than two people right in front of you)... not nice. So it's not the secrets per se, it's how they are sold by means of lies and omissions. |
clarissa35f Veteran user 363 Posts |
I understand you. And it is sad that we have businesses that behave as you describe. The main problem is that all an inventor need do, is change a principle , or provide an alternate handling, or use the principle in a novel way, to be able to say.." Brand new"...
There are legalities about certain terms, all I can suggest is, if you feel that the advertising was misleading, to contact the Department of Commerce. The problem there is, you'd have to explain that the item you purchased as " brand new" described a principle that has been in writing since 1911 or whenever. But if the creator...I use the term loosely, changed something about the handling or principle...he can say it's " brand new" and might get away with it. If you peruse the forums you will find that we here will say " such and such " company is unethical, and uses misleading advertising. Or that the items they sell are cheaply made, and will not last long. or... maybe someone tried to get an item exchanged because it fell apart in it's first use, and the company did not replace it, or they did everything to discourage a replacement or refund etc. I know how you feel, if I had payed good money for something, and was told.." use some saliva." It might set me back as well. All I can suggest is next time, do more research, and ask. Chances are with so many of us here, either someone will have experience with that particular effect...or with the company that produces it, or the company that merchandises it. Stick to established names in the industry. Maybe you pay a Little more, but you will be dealing with companies that have been around for a while, and are known to provide value. I am sorry you had such a bad experience.
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous> "There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn> |
jstone Inner circle Someday I'll have 1473 Posts |
Tina,
You bring up a good point. However it's sort of tricky... think of a stage illusion. So you see this cool stage illusion where a put someone in a box (your assistant) and they instantly disappear. You can buy it for $2500 bucks, and you'll get the secret that makes it work. When the box arrives, you look at it and say with a lick-your-hand disappointed tone, "It's just a trap door!?" I guess the question is, where do you draw the line? I don't know the answer. |
Tina I Regular user Oslo/ Norway 194 Posts |
There is a difference in selling props and selling methods. As I said earlier; every 'secret' usually holds the potential for a "is that all?" reactions. That's not what annoys me. What annoys me is the definitions of "new and sensational". It's very hard to go into details without exposing a marketed trick but when you market a trick as using a new method or an "amazing new discovery" and it's not only obvious but also old as dirt it really borders to a scam.
Like if I made a DVD claiming it showed an amazing new method for getting selected card appear on top and it turned out to simply be the classic pass. No amount of additional suggested presentations would justify it. It would still have absolutely no value if you already knew the pass. You would have bought it in the hope of learning a *new* method, not suggestions on how to apply an old method. So to go back to what my original post was about: The fact that moisture makes cardboard warp is not, by any conceivable definition, a *new* discovery. And even if the rest of the DVD contain some good stuff the buyer do not get what he/ she ordered, namely a new way of making cardboard bend. I love simple secrets. The simpler the better and I have long since stopped being disapointed about it. All I really wish for is honesty. Don't claim it's new when it's not. If it's angle sensitive say so etc etc. |
Cyberqat Inner circle You can tell I work on the net from my 2209 Posts |
I think there is an interesting issue lurking in this. A tricky one, but interesting. I think maybe I'll start a new thread for it...
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
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