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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts 
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There was a hotdog vendor in New York City once that had "his" corner. One day a new guy showed up an refused to leave when asked. So..the vendor axed him to death. He went to jail and...another new guy got the corner. Life's ironic that way.
That being said... So, you got to a restaurant and they say "we have a Magician on Friday nights". Oh, just Fridays? How about I do Saturdays? What's wrong with that? Places have different bands throughout the week. One band doesn't own the restaurant or club just 'cause they play a certain night of the week. How is it different for magicians? Is it different just 'cause magicians say it's different? What if you asked what they pay him and you offer a lower rate? That's wrong also? Vendors compete at establishments for the business all the time. I'm just curious what everyone's view on it is. Oh, also, if any of this "poaching" happened to you, what would you do about it? Let's say the magician in question doesn't go to clubs and isn't involved in the community in any way. He doesn't care what you say, who you are or if while discussing this with him, if that's your response, a bus ran you over. Now, it doesn't matter that there is plenty of work everywhere. This particluar magician has chosen your restaurant because...that's where he wants to work. Or, he wants several places in that area and yours happens to be one of them.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Davro Veteran user UK 319 Posts
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I think that I would ask the owner why he didn't ask me to do an extra night. Then, if he said something along the lines of "he is cheaper" or "I thought I would try him out" then I would raise my game on the night I was there.
Best Wishes, David
<BR> <BR>Mid way this way of life we're bound upon, I woke to find myself in a dark wood, where the right road was wholly lost and gone. |
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Keith Raygor Special user Naples, FL 968 Posts
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Because inputting extremes (bus, murder, jail) will dramatically change the outcome of any situation, I'll bite from a normal, inside the bubble, point of view.
If I lose my gig or a potential night to a new guy off the street, my relationship with the owner wasn't what it needed to be to keep the gig. That is my responsibility. And that relationship is built on my work at the tables AND my personal dealings with the owner and his guests. In restaurant magic (9 years, 5 nights per week at my latest restaurant), as opposed to music clubs (16 years prior, 5-6 nights per week), there is a proprietary feeling about the establishment. You never feel that in music clubs because the concept of having other musicians there on other nights or others weeks already existed before we even walked in the door. Many times in restaurant magic, we are the ones that introduced the concept of this type of entertainment to the restaurant. That proprietary feeling may or may not be justified, but gauging by the posts when the subject of 'poachers' has been brought up before, it definitely exists. Even so, establishing a concept doesn't make you the owner of it. As I said, keeping the gig is my responsibility. With that said, I would never approach another restaurant that currently had another magician because I know the work it took to get and keep the gig. Doing so would be bad karma. Not only would it come back around to me, but it would come back around to anyone that did it. Ethics can and should be taught. So yes, its different because magicians say its different. The owners of restaurants work harder than the magician they hired. They can spot undercutting salesmen with low standards a mile off. The offering of lower prices by a competitor is just one of the details that will be answered by either of the above fundamentals - ethical behavior or relationships. |
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Christopher Lyle Inner circle Dallas, Texas 5698 Posts
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Geeze Keith! That was the greatest post I've ever read. No point for anyone else to comment on this thread! NEXT! = )
For me to "try" and add further to Keiths post would be pointless...so I won't even try....
In Mystery,
Christopher Lyle Magician, Comic, Daredevil, and Balloon Twisting Genius For a Good Time...CLICK HERE! |
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denny_Corby Loyal user PA 240 Posts
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[quote]On 2008-06-10 03:47, David Lancaster wrote:
I think that I would ask the owner why he didn't ask me to do an extra night. Then, if he said something along the lines of "he is cheaper" or "I thought I would try him out" then I would raise my game on the night I was there. [/quote I think its important to have your game raised every night. I know I go in every night I work giving 110%. I don't want to slack off because I have been their for awhile. Just my thoughts! |
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Bad to the Balloon Inner circle Clearwater Florida 2116 Posts
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How do you give 110%? Two hour gig you stay 12 minutes over?
Mark Byrne
AKA Mark the Balloon Guy As seen on the TODAY SHOW www.balloonguy.net Creator of Bad to the Balloon DVD series Go to my store: http://tinyurl.com/Bad2theBalloon |
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Bad to the Balloon Inner circle Clearwater Florida 2116 Posts
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How do you give 110%? Two hour gig you stay 12 minutes over?
Mark Byrne
AKA Mark the Balloon Guy As seen on the TODAY SHOW www.balloonguy.net Creator of Bad to the Balloon DVD series Go to my store: http://tinyurl.com/Bad2theBalloon |
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-06-10 08:45, Keith Raygor wrote: Keith, BRILLIANT! What a post. We're done.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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denny_Corby Loyal user PA 240 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-06-10 12:46, Bad to the Balloon wrote: I always get their about 10-15 minutes early and stay an extra 10-15 minutes after. The establishment really appreciates that and especially if more tables want to see me. so yes I do give 110% And that does not mean time, it mens every tables gets my best show. I always have a smile on my face and greet everyone who comes in and I see. |
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mrunge Inner circle Charleston, SC 3716 Posts
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Yep...brilliant post Keith! Thank you.
Mark. 
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kammagic Inner circle 1304 Posts
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Yes magicians are very different than a band. A band is lucky to play a few times a year at a club. Where as a magician usually has a weekly gig with the establishment and is a fixture there like any other employee. So yes that magician can call that restaurant his. Any other position(waiter, bartender, manager) you would find out if there were openings and then apply for the open position. Once a restaurant has a magician that position is filled and you should stay away. As magicians we play sort of a goodwill ambassador for the establishment. We need to be friendly, respectful, gracious, well mannered. If you approach an establishment and try to steal someone's position you come off as none of those things.
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JeffMac Veteran user Sudbury, ont 350 Posts
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I still can't understand this. It's not the Magicians venue. It's the owner of the venues venue.
No matter how good of a performer you are there are only so many times the same people there that will be asking to see something and they have seen you perform before they know your act. I work in a city of about 150000 and bartend in a venue that puts 1800 people through the door on a regular basis. I TRY to put together a new bit for every week or two because (might just be a different way to reveal a card) I know there will be people who have seen everything I do a few times and I want to keep it fresh. Now if the owner got to the point where he thought it would make sense to have more magic. It would make 100% sense to hire someone other than me. We are different in the sense that it might be harder to get work but from the owners perspective we are entertainment. They pay our wage it's their call if they want to hire someone else for another night. The protection of "TURF" does nothing but limit the amount of venues that would want to book magicians. It may seem counterintuitive but letting and encouraging other performs move in on you makes the type of entertainment more palatable on a whole to the people that count and pay the bills. MANY MANY venues have house musicians as well as a rotating roaster and whoever passes threw town. If magicians could adopt that type of mentality it would be a massive improvement to magic as a whole. Giving new magicians the opportunity to develop their craft as a once a month magician at a few venues and not needing to know a lot of effects and focus on expanding their performance ability. More seasoned magicians who have the ability to hold court as it were in a house magician situation. |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-06-10 15:29, kammagic wrote: As Keith mentioned, you need to be one additional thing: indispensable. If you're not, it's your fault if you lose your gig to someone else. |
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derrick Inner circle I dug holes for 1044 Posts
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I’ve seen a good single with a guitar play for over 10 years at the same gig. They are modern day minstrels. People go to hear their favorite drinking songs over and over and the regulars almost always get a friendly “HI” when they come in the front door from the entertainer. As the night gets later, the songs get bawdier and the tips get bigger the more he rejects their requests to do the more off color stuff. Sounds pretty familiar to me.
It’s tough for a band to have this same kind of rapport with their audience. Their sets start later and at best they get a quick break between sets were they get 15 minutes for a drink and a rest stop. Typically they also have to travel because their expenses are much higher. A night club paying $100 bucks or so a night for a magician or a single musical act is quite a bit different than $1,500 to $3,000 (or more) for a band. |
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Keith Raygor Special user Naples, FL 968 Posts
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Indispensability is the key to understanding the difference between JeffMac's scenario and my situation. After nine years, you can imagine how many repeat guests there are, and how many of them have become my friends by this time.
There is a time and a place for those type of establishments that JeffMac describes, where we are simply the entertainment, and we should encourage the other magicians to "move in" on us. Fortunately for me and my family, and my fellow magicians in this area, I am not living in that time and place. There was never any question over who's venue it is. The point of doing a excellent job, using marketing and advertising, and above all establishing yourself as a unique entertainer that no one else can compare to, is to bring repeat business into the owner's door and your calendar. Repeat business is the goal, not the curse. There are guests that have seen a few of my tricks 30-40 times over the years. And they appear to have the same excitement in requesting them and bringing friends in to see them, as I do in watching Elton John sing 'Rocket Man' live for the umpteenth time. It's not the song, although I like it - it's the performance. It's the person. It's the delivery and the reception. And it has always been my job to find that same connection with tableside magic night after night. Early on, about 7-8 years ago, when asking the owners if they'd like me to get a replacement for the night's I'm not there due to outside engagements, all four owners found the idea silly. They pointed out: "they're not coming here to see a magician - they're coming here to see you!" Lest you think this is entirely ego-based, please understand, JeffMac, that from the initial approaches to the restaurants, to the way I speak at the tables, to the tricks I choose to perform - I try to do my job well for the sake of accomplishing the goals I had when starting off on this great ride. I found a scenario that works for the owners, their guests, and my personal goals. The other scenarios you mention are out there, for example, the Magic Castle, but I've chosen not to go that route as I would have to have given up some of my personal goals. Doing an excellent job, and being unique so that people choose to see your performance over that of another magician is not protection of turf, as you put it. It's striving for excellence. Excellence and its results encourages other venues to try the same thing, rather than limit the amount of venues, as you say. I've seen it happen. Striving for excellence also leads to better opportunities for other magicians. It happens when I refer a gig to someone else because my date is already booked. I understand your point of view, and see it work in some locations (but not 'MANY, MANY'). But I've never much wanted to be part of a roster, and for those that feel the same way: excellence, uniqueness and indispensability lead to others rewards as well as those you mention. |
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tboehnlein Inner circle ohio 1787 Posts
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I have made similar posts in other threads but I believe Jeff & Kieth really are in more agrement then some may believe. 1st competition is good it makes us all better & what has made this country what it is today, I believe if we strive to provide the best service & quality of entertainment we can then it reduces the so called poachers, as a business it is our job to identify to the establishment the value that we supply, Kieth has obviously done that ("they're not coming here to see a magician - they're coming here to see you!") & that is what we should strive to model. Jeff understands that the venue needs to meet customer needs & desires, variety has been his experience so that pushes his perspective, therefor he takes it upon himself to change his act. Unfortunately a lot of it comes down to Gordon Gecko statement"Greed is Good" it drives us to better if you become lazy in your business practices then you will lose.Jeff & Kiet please feel free to clearify if I am mistaken.
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JeffMac Veteran user Sudbury, ont 350 Posts
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Tboehnlein I was going to say pretty much the same thing. If you are a Magician who has gotten to the point where you are indispensable. Then you are INDISPENSABLE, another magician working the same venue as you on a different night makes no difference. You point out your love of Elton Johns Rocket man. would hearing another song make you like it any less? I truly doubt it. Is it the only song you listen to? Probably not. Might listening to other music even enhance your love of Rocket Man? maybe.
The point I was trying to make is that if a young guy came in and did a few nights you don't work and one of your regulars came in would they like you any less? It might even refresh their interest in magic in general. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts
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I make no judgement right or wrong. I simply would not do it.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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kammagic Inner circle 1304 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-06-11 11:51, Keith Raygor wrote: Keith, I agree completely I have been with my restaurant for ten years now and yes it is "My" restaurant. Of course I don't own it but it is recognized as the restaurant that I work. By keeping up a level of excellence and being liked as not only an entertainer but as a person you become a fixture at an establishment. It becomes home. There are very few establishments that have more then one magician. Most can barely afford one magician. It is very rare that you find 2 magicians that perform on the same level and have the same likability factor. Eventually the lesser of the 2 will be let go. , Jonathan |
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kammagic Inner circle 1304 Posts
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Look at it this way. When you work for an establishment you have a relationship with that establishment. The longer that relationship the stronger it is. If you come in and try to get a job where someone else works its like hitting on some guys girlfriend. You just don't do it. I don't care how "attractive" the restaurant might be.
, Jonathan |
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Posted: Jun 10, 2008 05:09 am 
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