On Erdnase we can read:

"Marked cards, generally known as "readers," can be distinguished by the backs as readily as by the faces when the key is known. Printed cards are manufactured, but these are rarely used by professionals. The designs are not the same as those now of standard make, and consequently would be difficult to introduce."

Long time I supposed he mean Theodore DeLand cards... But time after I realize DeLand cards appeared 20 years after Expert. Which cards he meant?

I am not sure, but, it may have been the cards that look like they have a plaid design. I know they were used like sorts....but, I don't recall if it was a manufacturing defect or if they were made intentionally that way?

It’s a very easy process to have a litho printing plate made that will print marked cards of your design and have them printed. Not so easy to have copyrighted designs printed like Bicycles and so on. Gambling supply houses such as H. C. Evans & Company of Chicago, established in 1892 and many others would have had there own marked cards printed up and individual gamblers to and many sorts would have been be about. The problem is as Erdnase says is: “The designs are not the same as those now of standard make, and consequently would be difficult to introduce."

Yes. This is problem what I ask. Like DeLand but 20 years before.

Yes but so what. What is your point Stepanov?

Tommy and Stepanov,

A look through the old catalogs like H.C. Evans, Hunt and Co., Will and Finck, K.C. Card Company, etc will show you that in almost all cases they didn't print up their own decks, they bought decks off the shelf and marked them by hand.

However, there were things known as "stamped decks." Stamped decks were marked cards manufactured to resemble the actual cards put out by a major printer. Both things (stamped decks and gambling supply companies) existed, but you're almost talking about two different eras. Stamped decks were more common in the early to mid 1800s, and the big gambling supply companies didn't come about until the late 1800s.

Was there some cross-over? Sure, there might have been. But looking through all the old catalogs won't bring up many results for cards that were factory marked.

Jason

Jason,

I know all the houses marked their own decks. But those decks wouldn't be "difficult to introduce" would they? Seems like Erdnase is talking about some kind of marked deck that didn't resemble the common brands of playing cards. No?

Marked cards from the printers is a scam that has been going on for hundreds of years anyway. If you read the real old books you can read about some very successful coups with them.

Vandy:

Yes. Erdnase is talking about stamped decks, at least I'm pretty sure he is. And...although I'm only speculating, I believe Erdnase is talking about the older stamped decks like the ones that were masquerading as decks from John Levy (an early maker of legitimate decks in the 1860s or so).

Usually these decks were close, but not perfect counterfeits. Erdnase may have been hinting that seasoned gamblers would be quick to spot the fact that the deck wasn't quite right, simply because it didn't have all of the proper markings from the real manufacturer. This would be similar to you or me spotting a deck of counterfeit Bee cards from China. The guy on the street might not know the difference, but card guys and serious players certainly would.

It's likely that there were some factory-produced marked cards in the days when Erdnase would have been playing (1880 - 1900) that were carried by the gambling supply houses (where else would you get them?), but as far as I can tell, most of the early houses did all of their work by simply buying pre-made cards and then marking them to be resold.

Tommy,

Just so we're clear...you can find the occasional stamped deck in later catalogs from the gambling supply houses. The "Daisy" deck, the "Nifty," the "Automatic" deck and the "Starback" deck were all available for sale in many of them. But these decks of course all came from DeLand, and were introduced much later (1915 or so) and I wasn't considering them as pre-Erdnase possibilities in my post above.

Makes sense. Thanks.

Last step - stupid Russian should understand all of this. ))

Jason. You mention "stamped decks". I search by word "stamped" and find on "Sharps and Flats" interesting thing:

"TO CARD PLAYERS
These cards are by far the finest-marked cards ever printed, and are fully equal in every way, quality of stock, print, and finish of both back and face, to any first quality square card made.
......
Attention is requested to our 'Montana,' No. 3, and to our 'Star,' No. 4. We furnish them in the colours mentioned and used in all games throughout the entire country."
If I understand well Mascelyne use text from catalog but forget about pictures. Who knows 'Montana' and 'Star' cards? I do not recognize this brands... Can it be answer on my question?

BTW. Who has catalogs from Maskelyne?

P.S. If here Tommy, Jason and Vandy I should be Oleg. If this is not too familiar for this comunity...

I it take that is quote from a gambling supply place. It sounds like they were having their own brands printed to me. Also what Erdnase says seems clear to me and I don't agree that he was talking about counterfeit brands. KEMs are the standard brand in cash poker games today and if I were to open a non standard deck of a different brand at my place then the players would be sus of them.

Amazing....I hate plastic cards... I just don't like their look and feel (just my personal opinion)....one thing about plastic cards is that once they are marked...people play with them for a long time.

Conversly, that may be bad too......if you use paper cards and open a new "marked deck" each time, then the evidence gets thrown away.

Like everything in life...there are pros and cons

All of which misses and is beside the point.

Not that this whole topic has any point at all really.

:)