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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
When does a painter know his painting is finished and know when to stop working on a picture? When does a magician know his act is fished and know when to stop working on a his act or a feat of magic?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Casey Magic Regular user North Carolina 177 Posts |
Most painters, I myself being one, ask ourselves these questions. My professor at UNC told me that it's finished when you feel that when each final stroke starts becoming an issue of deliberation, it's probably time to think about stopping. Some people would tell you that you are just getting to the good part when you hit that point and I would agree. One of my favorite painters, Francis Bacon, would have people come in his studio every week and take all of the paintings he was working on out...finished or not, because he felt if they sat their too long, he would ultimately destroy them.
I think that destruction happens a lot in magic. Not knowing when to stop, etc. But it's different for everyone. I feel for a structured staged performance, has a strong ending and builds to that critical climax. Performing magic in a walkaround or an 'off the cuff' situation is probably the best place to take this sort of question. Then magic becomes more like a sketch or a drawing and less like a painting, as you are creating in the moment and have a decided place to stop (draw a picture of a bird, the end result is a bird), however, is it simple and direct? Complicated? Do they just remember you drew them a bird, or do they remember the crazy way you got to the bird? Jay Sankey had a really great quote about magic in this circumstance, and I'm just going to loosely quote what I remember it being. Something to the effect that, When I first started in magic I used to want to produce a coin, then turn it into four coins, then turn the four coins into 4 chinese coins and the turn the 4 chinese coins into a deck of cards and change the deck of cards from red to blue and the from the cards produce an egg, and from the egg produce a goose. Now, I just want to get to the goose. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Well your professor at UNC is wrong and tell him I said so.
This fella is right. Art and Intention a Philosophical Study. -Paisley Livingston-
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Whit Haydn V.I.P. 5449 Posts |
If you know the answer, Tommy, then why did you ask the question?
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Just testing.
As I was reading the book I was wondering if what it says is applied in our art. I will give you a quote from the preface to give you a gist of what the fella is saying in the book to see what you think. Preface “Sextus Empiricus relates a story about Apelles of Kolophon, the legendary fourth century bc artist whose motto is said to have been ‘Not a day without a line’. Apelles was at work on a picture of a horse, having set himself the task of producing a vivid depiction of the lather on the animal’s mouth. Frustrated by his failure to achieve the desired effect, he angrily cast his paint-soaked sponge at the picture, only to discover that the paint he had splashed onto the surface yielded a Wne depiction of the horse’s lather.1 Sextus suggests that the sceptic can enjoy a similar success: when we suspend judgement, tranquillity follows. I draw a rather different lesson from this legendary episode of artistic creation. In thinking about art, we want to keep in mind the artist’s specific intentions, and the actions and events to which they give rise. Apelles, for example, has definite aims in mind when he begins to paint his picture. His efforts are successful until he tries to perfect the representation of the lather, and he finally gives up on realizing that intention. (It is said that in a lost treatise on painting, Apelles argued that knowing when to stop working on a picture is a crucial part of the artist’s skill.) The painter’s attempt to destroy the fragmentary picture also fails, its unexpected by-product uncannily recalling the abandoned intention to depict the lather. I imagine an Apelles who finds his painterly diligence mocked by the fortuitous appearance of what looks like a successful work of art. My conjecture is that the artist is quite unlike Sextus’ sceptic. Tranquillity does not follow the accidental appearance of a mimetic effect, because Apelles is after a kind of artistic value that depends crucially on the skilful and intentional realization of his intentions. The painter knows he had taken up the challenge of skilfully painting the lather, and he cannot pride himself on achieving that goal. We can, of course, imagine an Apelles who learns how to splash paint to achieve desired artistic eVects, but that is a different story. Intentions, then, are a crucial part of the story of artistic creation……..” And so on.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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kregg Inner circle 1950 Posts |
Tommy, how do come up with some of this crap?
Unlike a painting a live act is always with you, therefor it can be changed anytime the performer sees the need to modify at his discretion. Plus it's live ... anything can happen.
POOF!
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
The fella is talking about Art and painting is merely used there as an example.
"What we have said about Art in Magic has its foundation in what has long been said and accepted in connection with other arts. The views we have expressed have their analogues in the views long since adopted by exponents of other arts, and endorsed by the highest authorities upon art of every kind. Thus, we have not attempted the creation of new principles or new standards, but have merely adapted to the art of magic those principles and standards already common to art in general." NM Our Magic I take it you do not agree with doing that?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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George Ledo Magic Café Columnist SF Bay Area 3042 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-06-21 09:52, tommy wrote: Great question, and one I've been running into for a long time. I'm not a painter, but, as a theatrical designer, I can tell my design is complete and I need to stop working on it when it matches my original vision -- when it says what I wanted it to say when I had it all figured out and sold it to the director. When I catch myself thinking, it needs more here or another color there, or whatever... when the technique wants to take over the message... I know it's time to stop on the design and move on to the drawings I will give to the scenic shop. Back when I was performing magic, I learned to stop right at the point where the act matched my original vision -- that moment when it all appeared spontaneous and just right and not over-worked. I don't know what the answer is, but one of my design professors used to talk about your faith in your work: either you have it or you don't -- and it takes a long time to develop it and be honest about it. And if you screw up and make a mistake... well, he used to say... just learn something from it and don't make it again.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here" |
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Zorak Regular user Maryland, USA 114 Posts |
As an artist myself, I often quote either Rembrant or maybe it was Rubens, who said "An artist never finishes a painting, he only abandons it."
When you have a successful show, you mostly look for embellishments or better methods, funnier or more contemporary lines etc. But why fix it if it isn't broke. If you like playing with magic for your own amusement, knock yourself out. There is no one answer here. Just my opinion. I have been earning a living at magic for over 30 years, it works for me.
Magic is in the hearts of children from 1 to 101
Please check out my Website: kiddiekazam.com FREE ORIGINAL CLIPART FOR MAGICIANS & CLOWNS PROP DESIGNS MAGIC CARTOONS all drawn by Zorak |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Original vision, Intention, achieving it, is just about the most important thing in our Art and any other Art for many reasons in my view.
George I am sure will find the book interesting it’s about original vision in all Arts not just painting: art and intention a philosophical study “Do the artist’s intentions have anything to do with the making and appreciation of works of art? In Art and Intention, Paisley Livingston develops a broad and balanced perspective on perennial disputes between intentionalists and anti-intentionalists in philosophical aesthetics and critical theory. He surveys and assesses a wide range of rival assumptions about the nature of intentions and the status of intentionalist psychology. With detailed reference to examples from diverse media, art forms, and traditions, he demonstrates that insights into the multiple functions of intentions have important implications for our understanding of artistic creation and authorship, the ontology of art, conceptions of texts, works, and versions, basic issues pertaining to the nature of fiction and fictional truth, and the theory of art interpretation and appreciation. Livingston argues that neither the inspirationist nor rationalistic conceptions can capture the blending of deliberate and intentional, spontaneous, and unintentional processes in the creation of art. Texts, works, and artistic structures and performances cannot be adequately individuated in the absence of a recognition of the relevant makers’ intentions. The distinction between complete and incomplete works receives an action-theoretic analysis that makes possible an elucidation of several different senses of ‘fragment’ in critical discourse. Livingston develops an account of authorship, contending that the recognition of intentions is in fact crucial to our understanding of diverse forms of collective art-making. An artist’s short-term intentions and long-term plans and policies interact in complex ways in the emergence of an artistic oeuvre, and our uptake of such attitudes makes an important difference to our appreciation of the relations between items belonging to a single life-work. The intentionalism Livingston advocates is, however, a partial one, and accommodates a number of important anti-intentionalist contentions. Intentions are fallible, and works of art, like other artefacts, can be put to a bewildering diversity of uses. Yet some important aspects of art’s meaning and value are linked to the artist’s aims and activities.”
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Casey Magic Regular user North Carolina 177 Posts |
"In thinking about art, we want to keep in mind the artist’s specific
intentions, and the actions and events to which they give rise. Apelles, for example, has definite aims in mind when he begins to paint his picture." Talk about wrong. I like that you put so much faith into one book above all other books and people on the subject. Art has many different perspectives and I'm glad that you found one that seems to work for you, eventhough, you are not actually a painter. If I, the spectator, have to keep in mind constantly the artist's specific intention, then the work fails at being a successful piece of art, i.e. I think the work of Mark Rothko is crap. So let me ask you a question, based on the word that you hold so very true to your heart...If 'intentions' are the crucial part of artistic creation, what happens when those intentions are realized only in the painter's (or in this case magician's) head? For example, I know that my intentions could be the best in the world, but, I have no cause to tell, or even make, someone else who looks at my work, magic or otherwise, what they should feel or see. We guide them, but there is no gaurantee that they see in the physical world what you see in your head, and there are a myriad of examples of this all over the art and magic world. Personally, I like this scenerio, but, yours is intention driven, and while that is a factor it is not the beginning or even the end of the creation of art in any form...it's merely a tiny step. |
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
You are all missing the obvious answer...
When the fat lady sings! Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-06-23 08:37, Casey Magic wrote: Chapter 1 What Are Intentions? Not actually a painter? I do actually but perhaps your confused with what George said. Quote:
On 2008-06-22 23:30, George Ledo wrote: Please do not let my remarks and views put you off reading the book.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Casey Magic Regular user North Carolina 177 Posts |
Since you are a painter you might understand this question a bit better. If my intention is to show the plight of the underclass, say, in south africa, and I chose to portray this with a portrait style painting of a white woman in a bikini on the beach. Everyone who views it, sees the woman in the bikini...shrugs it off as a normal painting of that. Did I fail in my intention of what I saw in my head?
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
When the wall is all one color, I stop painting. What is so tough about that?
OH lets make things all philisophical sounding, that way we can all seem important like we know so much about magic "theory". Yep ought to help. When the wall is one color STOP PAINTING.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Casey Magic Regular user North Carolina 177 Posts |
Excellent, Danny!
I'm really not fond of the idea of putting too much philosophy in art. Just clouds up the water and keeps people from pushing the envelope of what is possible. I think I'd much rather Tommy plug the book and say it's a good read vs. tell me the story of some 4th Century BC artist to try and prove a point that is not worth proving. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
I would say you were misinformed by the thought that future viewers of the picture would be aware of the symbolic meaning in the work, which in turn did not correspond to part of your intentions with regard to the target response being the intention to show the plight of the underclass and thus you failed. However I do not want to support the misleading idea that artists are fully rational and lucid beings.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Casey Magic Regular user North Carolina 177 Posts |
"However I do not want to support the misleading idea that artists are fully rational and lucid beings."
That's enough of a curveball to throw several philosophies out the window. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
It was a Joke Cassy as was my remark about your Prof, don’t take everything to art.
As for intention and magic: We have to think about what we want from our audience. The whole thing revolves around our intentions. The character we play and feats we do or don’t do are governed by our intentions. But intensions are a very complex thing and the fella in the book explains it all nicely. There is food for thought in the book that is helpful I think.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
What we want from our audience? How about what they want from us? Did they not put the money forth to be entertained? Are they not the ones who should rightfully "expect" something in this transaction?
I mean what does Wal-Mart "expect" from me? Nothing really. But I expect a TON from them as I am giving them money. I supose all you can realistically ask is for a fair chance to let them be entertained. I never know why these things get blown SO out of proportion.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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