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Thomas Wayne Inner circle Alaska 1977 Posts |
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On 2002-03-11 22:24, Tom Cutts wrote: As someone one said, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think..." The entire point of the Sid Brockman story is that here is this one little guy who has one magical secret that NOBODY else knows, not even the best magicians in town. It's a secret he keeps for years and years and years, and one day he passes it on to some kid - now grown - who used to hang out in his shop, lo' these many years ago. After he passes on this deep dark torch of mystery, he... what? Shuffles off this mortal coil? Is buried in the mass rubble of a demolished building? Maybe disappears into some murky void that swallows up old, tired magicians? Who knows, really; the answer is never offered within the performance, though they always asked afterwards (and got a slow, pensive "I don't know" for their trouble). The entire "playlet" had a very "Twilight Zone" feel to it; I only performed it as a stand alone piece of astonishment (at private social gatherings) and I can assure you that my audience felt the performance far more deeply than a mere "puzzle". I must say, however, that I am amazed at the audacity you show, in weighing the reactions of MY audiences, whom you have never seen. I am NOT surprised, however, that you fail to get the point of the story. Ya know, Tom, you talk an awfully good game about how entranced and mesmerized your audiences are by your incredible performance skills - something us poor beginners can only HOPE to achieve someday, if we'll just worship at the feet of the master - but you never actually put any flesh on those bones. Perhaps you'd be willing to share some of YOUR great presentations, so we can judge for ourselves. After all, it would be a shame to think that all your pontificating is actually just smoke. Share, won't you? Regards, Thomas Wayne
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
Share not in stale words on the screen. Share in demonstration to a lay audience, perhaps.
Your story, quite promising, exception noted as per above. I weigh nothing of your audience. It was, afterall, you who said, "if you think that every person watching that routine wasn't wondering how the h*ll I did it, you're nuts." Hmmm, did I ask anyone to worship at my feet, or did I let everyone know they are on their own journey and to enjoy and learn from that...at their own pace. All I wish is that no one says that what awaits out there is impossible, because such robs the energy from those who dream. There are those who will never stop reaching...and those who will never believe. |
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Paul Inner circle A good lecturer at your service! 4409 Posts |
As all your audiences believe you use genuine magical powers and never suspect any form of trickery Tom, I look forward to reading the headline story about you in The Weekly World News :)
But at least you are attempting to give a superior performance in your own way (just as TW and I are trying to give a superior performance in our own way)so good luck to you. Has your act been seen at any conventions yet? Paul Hallas |
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Gonz,
The thing that makes magic fascinating to some audiences today is not that the magic is real (and, therefore, what is there to be astonished about, as you say) but, rather, the fact that it COULD be real. (Or, at least, that's the effect on audiences if it's done correctly.) The very possibility that the impossible could happen is the hook. But to just show up and do something impossible is pointless (why are you doing it; why is it you and not someone else; etc.). Therefore, the story that goes with it, to explain and justify the events, is critical. After all, without the surrounding explanation and justification, the Biblical story of Noah, for example, is just a guy in a boat. cheers, Peter Marucci showtimecol@aol.com |
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Paul Inner circle A good lecturer at your service! 4409 Posts |
Peter said;
But to just show up and do something impossible is pointless (why are you doing it; why is it you and not someone else; etc.). Why am I doing it? Because I'm being paid to Why is it me? Because they wanted me and not some other magician re; The very possibility that the impossible could happen is the hook. The fact they ARE witnessing impossible things is a hook, not that the possibility of the impossible could happen. It is happening when clearly it should not be. They are not used to it, so they are amused or shocked, but certainly fascinated. They reason there MUST be a way of doing it, it shouldn't be happening, they want to see more. The more you baffle them the less they try and reason, eventually just accepting and absorbing the EFFECTS you are accomplishing. But later, when you are gone, in the cold light of day, they may sing your praises, and to them you may be the best magician they have ever seen, but they will not think you truly have magical powers. If you had, would you really need to go out and do paid bookings? |
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Well, that IS another opinion.
However, IF you could really do the impossible, then why would you show up at that particular venue at all? Wouldn't you be out ending world hunger or creating world peace? No, the very essence of what we do is the fact that the impossible appears to be made possible. Not that it IS; but that it APPEARS to be. Just as in movies -- Jurassic Park, for example -- we know the dinosaurs are not real but they appear to be, in that context, and that is what we want. Perhaps I was saying what you are saying Paul, when you write: ". . .they will not think you truly have magical powers. If you had, would you really need to go out and do paid bookings?" The Atlantic is sometimes a gulf between the common language as well as separate continents! cheers, Peter Marucci showtimecol@aol.com |
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Paul Inner circle A good lecturer at your service! 4409 Posts |
Touche!
They ARE witnessing impossible looking things. As you say Peter.., "the very essence of what we do is the fact that the impossible appears to be made possible." We are saying the same thing, but I'm saying it in the ENGLISH language You mean that T-Rex wasn't real? Paul |
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Thomas Wayne Inner circle Alaska 1977 Posts |
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On 2002-03-12 06:18, Peter Marucci wrote: Yeah, but it was RAINING! And did I mention he was good with animals? Regards, Thomas Wayne Ye
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Paul writes: "We are saying the same thing, but I'm saying it in the ENGLISH language "
Argh! That's a low blow at one of us poor colonials! Just for that, I'm going to tell you: No, that T-Rex WASN'T real! cheers, Peter Marucci showtimecol@aol.com |
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Philemon Vanderbeck Inner circle Seattle, WA 4694 Posts |
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On 2002-03-12 16:44, Thomas Wayne wrote: Eh... You've seen one animal act, you've seen them all...
Professor Philemon Vanderbeck
That Creepy Magician "I use my sixth sense to create the illusion of possessing the other five." |
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Stephen Long Inner circle 1481 Posts |
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On 2002-03-12 06:18, Peter Marucci wrote: This is my point exactly, Peter. This is my minor quibble with Tom's approach. How do you expect any rational audience to buy into the concept of "real" magic? Wouldn't an audience feel they were being given a lot more credit by a magician who began: "This is not real magic. Real magic does not exist. But if it DID, this is what it might look like..." The audience would be more accepting of the effects and would be much more willing to buy into the moment. Eric Mead took this very approach in his "mystery show" where he tried to delve more into the moment of astonishment with his magic. He made no big secret that the audience would be seeing tricks and he said it erradicated the concept of "being fooled" by the magician. Here are Mead's thoughts on this: "I'm introducing a 'balance of power' between me as the magician and you as the audience. If I know all the secrets and you don't, it's very one-sided. But if I can convince you that the feeling these "tricks" evoke is rare and wonderful, you no longer want to figure the trick out like a puzzle. How it's done becomes irrelevant. Instead, you try to be amazed. And instead of "fooling" you, I'm honestly trying to help" A very relevant quote for this debate, I thought. Another Mead quote when amazed spectator's ask him if his magic is "real": "No. It wasn't real magic, but it looked exactly like real magic would look." He went on to say: "from [the audience's] point of view, what's the difference? Tamariz talks about that in 'The Magic Way'" Maybe that's worth a read - "The Magic Way"...? Although I don't apply this concept on as high a level as Eric Mead does, I apply the same basic approach when performing - this is not real, I am creating seemingly impossible illusions for your entertainment. I don't think that the concept of "real" magic will ever be bought by the majority of spectators; I STRONGLY support Eric Mead's approach. If you want to get your audience involved in the possibility of "real" magic, surely the best way to start is by pushing it out of the picture as impossible? That will really give them something to think about... a few more thoughts many thanks, Gonz :carrot:
Hello.
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Thomas Wayne Inner circle Alaska 1977 Posts |
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On 2002-03-12 04:51, Tom Cutts wrote: Yeah, I didn't think you'd have anything to back up your incredible claims. I AM surprised that a "publisher" would consider words to be "stale". For myself, I find the written word to a wonderful means of communicating, offering the reader a much more vivid opportunity to interpret the author's thoughts and meaning. I guess that's why I prefer books to video, as far as magic instruction goes. So it occurs to me that if you are unable to describe in [stale?] words the glories of your exceptional and spellbinding performances... well, perhaps they exist only in your own imagination. Regards, Thomas Wayne
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
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espmagic Special user 978 Posts |
Oh, I must, I must... Does anyone assume, after attending a Copperfield show, that he REALLY flies across the stage? Probably not. But we want to believe that he does.
Does anyone believe that it is possible to change a $5 into a $100? Probably not, but we want to believe. And to argue the existance of "real" magic versus any other kind of magic is silly, no? I mean, as Peter points out (wise man, that Canuck!): if you could REALLY do magic, would you be standing here, at my tableside, playing with a deck of cards and showing off, or would you be doing something WORTHWHILE? (Now, no, I am not saying card tricks aren't worthwhile, but in the big picture a card trick won't be saving the world - I know, because I am a fortuneteller and prognosticator!) This direction echoes my previous post ("Do people really believe?") - who are we to judge them, if they do, or do not, believe? Are we not there to entertain them? Or are we changing nickel into gold, so we can buy a six-pack on the way home?:) |
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Paul Inner circle A good lecturer at your service! 4409 Posts |
Eric Mead was quoted;
But if I can convince you that the feeling these "tricks" evoke is rare and wonderful, you no longer want to figure the trick out like a puzzle. How it's done becomes irrelevant. Whereas I said earlier; They reason there MUST be a way of doing it, it shouldn't be happening, they want to see more. The more you baffle them the less they try and reason, eventually just accepting and absorbing the EFFECTS you are accomplishing. I guess I let them get to that point on their own.. I credit them with enough intelligence to realize I am not claiming real magic powers, and to know that I know, that they know, that I know they know that Pretty deep huh? Also a good reason never to do just one trick on its own. But I do remember reading Bill Nagler's booklet around 1980 about how it IS NOT fun to be fooled and giving ways of presenting magic to make it more acceptable and enjoyable.It was also on audio cassette from Martin Breese. I do remember telling an audience of 10 and 11 year olds I got roped into entertaining once, that what they were about to see was not a demonstration of real magical powers, simply a form of entertainment. The REAL magic was all around us, the way flowers grow from tiny seeds etc etc. As for Copperfield and "Flying", well, maybe that is why he has retired the illusion. I doubt anyone truly suspended their belief, more marvelled at how clever it was to be able to pass hoops over. Was it Sadowitz that said: "If he's that bloody clever why doesn't he come outside and float around the car park!" Paul Hallas http://www.PH-Marketing-magic.co.uk |
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
This thread was a lot more fun when we were doing Noah jokes!
cheers, Peter Marucci showtimecol@aol.com |
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
Noah it wasn't.
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Philemon Vanderbeck Inner circle Seattle, WA 4694 Posts |
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On 2002-03-13 07:03, Paul Hallas wrote: David destroyed any suspension of disbelief when he introduced the hoops and the acrylic box. By 'proving' that no wires were attached, he turned a beautiful illusion into a puzzle. If I could really fly, why would I feel the desire to prove it, by floating through hoops and hovering in a box?
Professor Philemon Vanderbeck
That Creepy Magician "I use my sixth sense to create the illusion of possessing the other five." |
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Thomas Wayne Inner circle Alaska 1977 Posts |
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Because, if you DIDN'T prove it, the audience would simply say: "Geez, those are some really thin wires he's hanging from." But really, to extend your logic a bit farther, if you really COULD fly why would you feel the need to prove it by flying in front of a bunch of people - and charging them money to watch you? I mean sure, go ahead and fly to get to work in a hurry or to change a lightbulb in a high ceiling maybe... but just to entertain people? My my, how you've ruined the beauty of it all. The entire premise of the flying illusion is to "prove" he can do it. The hoops and box are used to strengthen the illusion, not weaken it. Failure to make the demonstration convincing equals failure to amaze, and failure to amaze equals no magic. Without the appearance of impossibility there is no magic; in the case of the flying illusion, this would become a demonstation of acrobatics - similar to a trapeze act. It is by the very act of removing the obvious solutions that the MAGIC is created in the first place; this is so fundamental to the successful performance of magic that I am really surprised that ANYONE would question the need to cancel out obvious solutions. Maybe, just maybe the "Beauty State" camp should consider taking up a different performing art - say ballet, for instance. With that kind of [supposed] performing power you guys should have no trouble convincing the audience you're really swans... Regards, Thomas Wayne
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
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Jeb Sherrill Inner circle Elsewhere 1161 Posts |
Actually, Philemon makes an interesting point. What might work well, if you could pull it off, would be to find a way of floating under and around things to prove there were no wires (instead of having people pass rings over you). Now Copperfield probably had to do what he did because it was much easier. Also, he choreographed it so that the "proof" part was almost an aside in the otherwise flawless floating performance. Perhaps if done again, someone might find a workable solution to this. I'd certainly like to see it.
Sable
I don't believe in reincarnation, but I may have in another life.
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Matt Graves Special user Huntsville, Alabama (USA) 504 Posts |
The thought of trying to improve on Copperfield's illusions makes my knees buckle. That man really has some kind of an imagination. Everybody acts like they know how he does everything, but I sure don't!
The only trick of his I think I might have even deciphered is Grandpa's Aces. I don't even know how he makes the AFLAC duck disappear! |
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