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Tom Cutts
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"How do you expect any rational audience to buy into the concept of "real" magic?"
By not hitting them over the head with it.
By not eliminating the option that it might very well be magic.
By giving them a reason to believe rather than not.

If one were to accept that the little excursion in to my world was real, then my audience would [and does] believe that a couple has a bond of love that has drawn them together...they are no chance crossing of paths. They will learn that there is little that can't be done when one eliminates the "voices" that say "It can't be done." They will learn what draws me to deeply explore magic and what it is like to have these "powers". In essence they will get the full experience of meeting a magician. Not a trickster, not an entertainer, not a juggler...a magician!

Plain and simple, people want answers to feel safe in their world. If you supply them the chance to find answers that agree with your magic rather than negate it, they will start to believe. Once they start it is my job to inch them ever further, taking care not to break that tenuous thread of trust and emotional belief.

When someone sees something they, until now, have known to be impossible, they have an emotional reaction to it. If you can give them an emotional answer as to why this happened, then you can get to them before they become analytical. Or at least that is what I have found.

The balance of power is a very relevant topic. I share the power by demonstrating that I care for my audience rather than with a disclaimer. In essence rather than giving up my power I empower my audience up to my level. For me it would be as big a shortcoming to say "there is no real magic" as it is to say "this is the real deal folks, I'm hot stuff". Like in the sales phrase, I want to get them near the boat and then have them hop in. But I don't even want them to know that is what they did. I don't want them to decide to believe, I want them to just do it as a natural emotional reaction.

So, if your only goal in your magic is to astonish, all I'm doing is pointing out that there is more that magicians can achieve. Magicians don't have to, but they also shouldn't claim that more is impossible.

As for the performance of those who believe that they can't create believable magic, they are right. If you believe you can't do something you are right.

I'm not disagreeing with anyone's decision to settle for less or realize more is not their cup of tea. I am disagreeing with those who say that more is not possible. I credit my audience with enough intelligence to make their own decisions about what to believe in and why. If they want to believe in the emotional "reality" of a movie why should I tell them it was just frames of light projected on a screen and portrayed by people who didn't really have those feelings and experiences.

I can say this: my audience knows it was both worthwhile and meaningful to have been a part of our worlds touching.
Eric Mead was quoted:" But if I can convince you that the feeling these "tricks" evoke is rare and wonderful, you no longer want to figure the trick out like a puzzle. How it's done becomes irrelevant." Which would be exactly my point...and I might add this. That it WAS done is what becomes relevant. Also rather than trying to convince my audience that rare and wonderful feelings can be evoked, I would just evoke them. But I'm rather certain that is what Mead meant.

There are those here who have shown repeatedly their inability or disinterest in journeying forth without a specific road map and time table. I have specifically not given one because the journey does not conform to such. The inability to grasp that means that words could not sway your way. Nor is that the intent of my words. They are here to provide a beacon to possibilities; as those whose journey has taken them to places I know not, provide beacons to me. I need not "back up" my findings. Such scientific analysis is exactly the thing my performance does not point to. It works for me and my audience just fine without your belief.

I realize that such scientifically "proof minded" people can spend their lives "interpreting" the world to fit their needs rather than understanding the possibilities to be discovered. Such is often the manner of science. But science is not a constant either. It must change and adapt as its misconceptions become apparent.

For your "scientific" need here are some "truths" that were clung to so hard they resulted, in some cases, in death and or imprisonment.
The Earth is flat.
The Sun revolves around the Earth.
It is impossible to travel beyond the speed of sound.

As a publisher I realize that restating things because of those who refuse to accept them or move on about their way is indeed stale. What has been said is there to see. Live on in your suppositions or explore the subject with authenticity of conviction to the discovery rather than clinging to your "occurrences".

The journey will bring you rewards beyond your wildest imagination. It will help mould the very unique "you" that is the crux of interest to an audience.

Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile

As for the ballet suggestion I will let the ballets of the world answer that one.
:dance: Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile
Tom Cutts
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"The entire premise of the flying illusion is to "prove" he can do it. The hoops and box are used to strengthen the illusion, not weaken it. Failure to make the demonstration convincing equals failure to amaze, and failure to amaze equals no magic."

So, Copperfield's goal was not to convince people that he was flying but rather to "prove" he can look like he is flying without us knowing how?

Smile
Thomas Wayne
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Quote:
On 2002-03-13 20:16, Tom Cutts wrote:
[...]
So, Copperfield's goal was not to convince people that he was flying but rather to "prove" he can look like he is flying without us knowing how?



Your words, not mine. But you certainly earn low marks for comprehension.

Thomas Wayne
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
Burt Yaroch
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Funny how we came full circle right back to my original question. Go figure.

Tom, those of us "scientific minded" whom you may have been convincing of your logic, I think you lost when you ultimately revealed the foundation of your premise, or lack thereof.

Quote:
I realize that such scientifically "proof minded" people can spend their lives "interpreting" the world to fit their needs rather than understanding the possibilities to be discovered.


The scientific method is devoid of need and cannot be twisted to fit a personal interpretation. Without it there is no understanding or discovery, only opinion and empty words. The world is doomed to remain flat evermore.

But at least it was proposed that the earth was flat. At least men of courage gathered as much evidence as technology would permit at the time to make such assertations. And the persons who clung to these "misconceptions" and imprisoned or killed these men of science were the ones who made such claims as "such scientific analysis is exactly the thing my performance does not point to". It was men who embraced dogmas, faith, and opinon who prevented the journey to discovery not the other way around.

Which is why, I think, you have ignored our requests for supporting evidence. It is easier to claim we are "settling for less" or "unable to grasp" your concepts than to tell us you cannot support your claims and leave us with, instead, that you and "your audience" get it.

But I don't know that you want us to understand your position at all. I tried, believe me I tried. I guess I'll just have to file this under my "occurances".

Smile
Yakworld.
Tom Cutts
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Yak,

A science that is only as correct as it can prove itself to be at any given time, spends most of its time in the long run being wrong and then proving that.

Again!!!!!!!!!

I'm not condemning those who believe only what they can prove. I am against those who claim that things they do not understand can not exist.

Luckily this is not the majority of scientists who know that their science is not correct but only as good as we can do given the circumstances.
Thomas Wayne
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Quote:
On 2002-03-14 02:12, Tom Cutts wrote
(quoting Thomas Wayne):

"Your words, not mine. But you certainly earn low marks for comprehension."



Due [presumably] to your inability to support your absurd assertions, you turn to re-wording MY statements in a distorted manner - that's what I mean by "low marks for comprehension". My statements and their meaning are quite clear, and your erroneous paraphrasing cannot change that fact.

As for the rest of it, I've stated my case clearly and I rest it firmly on the thinking and teaching of those who've gone before me. You, on the other hand, are able to offer NOTHING - other than your own flowery rhetoric - to support your claim that your audiences are SO enthralled with your performances that they don't even think to wonder how you "did it". You paint a picture of "staggering" magical performances that transform your audience to some sort of "beauty state", but somehow "stale words" can't shed any light on these marvels. Of course, I 'm convinced that this is all the product of some deep little fantasy world you reside in.

Thomas Wayne

Posted: Mar 14, 2002 4:07am
Cutts,

I think this discussion has long since run its course.

You make extraordinary claims about your performance abilities - claims that defy logic and common human nature. You offer, however, NOTHING in the way of support for your claims OR your theories, and your theories seem to have garnered NO support from the many readers of this forum.

I believe that when strong magic is performed, the VAST majority of any audience will, in some portion of their thoughts, wonder how it was done. I disagree with your position that if the audience wonders how you did it then you're "doing something wrong". I think such advice is poorly thought out and just plain erroneous, and I also think that ANY performer who makes the incredible claims that you have made, if they're true, would have to be quite famous by now - which you're clearly not.

Beyond that I really have nothing more to add.

Thomas Wayne
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
Jeb Sherrill
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I have largely remained clear of this discussion for a variety of reasons, but at this point I think a few things need to be said. Tom's ideology seems somewhat utopian to me, but I do not find his ideas erroneous. I cannot defend his view as it is more radical than my own, but it is in the same vein. I do think he has some good points and good ideas of what to shoot for in magic.

That said: as this is indeed a "magic theory" discussion, I also do not see any point in constantly asking that he show proof of anything. I have seen no "proof" to the contrary, just a variety of opinions bantered back and forth, which is what this should be. What proof could possibly be given? I find most quoting to be silly, as all you do is "quote" the idea of another, that may or may not have any better thinking that yourself. If you are to have a discussion, you might as well at least be quoting yourself. The opinion of the greatest magician on earth (whatever that would be), would hardly constitute "proof" anyway. And what else would you like, statistics, surveys, audience polls? This is a discussion of opinions, nothing more. Don't pretend that it is anything but.


Sable
Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile

Posted: Mar 14, 2002 9:40am
Yak,
As usual, I find your points fascinating, but I would add a few thoughts. Yes, the *****tering of the Dark Ages brought a wealth of innovation and ideas. On the other hand, in the grand scheme of things, those insane religious leaders held back the tides of entropy. Thanks to the beauty of modern technology, we now have weapons capable of obliterating the entire planet (to say nothing of lesser instruments of destruction), a dwindling wildlife, destroyed forests, a depleting ozone, oil shortages, overcrowding, global warming; need I go on.

It should also be asserted, though I'm not saying that you were necessarily saying this, but dogma and faith were hardly the problems in the Dark Ages. After all, while the Christians of Europe spent those dark times in squalor, the Muslims of the Middle East enjoyed a golden age of knowledge and technology. They had running water, cataract surgery, a highly advanced numeric system and scientific understanding that surpassed any till that day, with the possible exception of some Chinese concepts. In fact they laid much of the foundation for modern scientific thinking, basing many things of course on concepts of ancients like the Greeks. The problem was never religion, but the people who ruled the religion. Muslim culture is indeed what influenced Europe to pull out of the Dark Ages and it was just powerful and dogmatic a faith as Christianity.

Just for the comedy of science, it is also interesting that the same science that once proved the sun was circled by the earth and not the other way around, now proves that both concepts were in error. In fact, by traversing the outer lines of Quantum Theory, one will find that because nothing can be understood without some form of fixed point (and there are no fixed points in the universe), then in order to study the universe, we must assume that we, ourselves are indeed the center and that the universe revolves around each and every one of us. We have indeed come full circle.

Sable
I don't believe in reincarnation, but I may have in another life.
Burt Yaroch
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Excellent point Sable. And in most cases I would totally agree. However here with such "utopian" claims, I would hope that one making such claims would be able to offer some contributing support or, at the very least how I too can grab this brass ring.

I cannot accept that this magical place exists because I haven't seen it, the masters of magic do not speak of it, I can find reference to it in no magic tome, and no one call tell me how to get there. This is my proof to the contrary.

And I think your suggession was sarchastic Smile but an audience poll would be fantastic. Produce ten people that Tom has taken to this Utopia and have them describe how it happened, how it made them feel, how it was different from other magical experiences. This information would be invaluable both in understanding this place as well as creating a map on how to get there.

Magic theory is not a series of ambigious and unfounded opinions. It is time honored contributions that have proven to be effective to the degree to have been embraced by the magic establishment. Perhaps Toms claims will someday be there as well. However when the claim is supported by telling me it's out there, go find it, I would bet against it.
Yakworld.
Jeb Sherrill
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Yak,
I'll admit, I want more than ever to see one of Tom's shows. Smile Since I generally espouse a similar, though not as extreme psychology of magic, I really want to see what kind of material he does.

Sable

Smile Smile Smile Smile Smile
I don't believe in reincarnation, but I may have in another life.
Burt Yaroch
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I'll drive.

Or fly. Smile

Hey Tom, when and where you want us?
Yakworld.
Tom Cutts
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Quote:
On 2002-03-14 10:08, yakandjak wrote:
I cannot accept that this magical place exists because I haven't seen it, the masters of magic do not speak of it, I can find reference to it in no magic tome, and no one call tell me how to get there. This is my proof to the contrary.

Not very scientific at all. You can not prove something doesn't exist.

But let me ask, are mentalists believed? Are psychics believed? Are there "tricks" out there that people believe? That was my proof that such was possible in magic when I started my journey.

Quote:
And I think your suggession was sarchastic Smile but an audience poll would be fantastic. Produce ten people that Tom has taken to this Utopia and have them describe how it happened, how it made them feel, how it was different from other magical experiences. This information would be invaluable both in understanding this place as well as creating a map on how to get there.

There in lies the rub. For you to be analytical about a non analytical thing ruins it. Tell me the mechanics of falling in love. Tell me the mechanics of God. To do so dispells their "magic".


TW,

I find your use of "Beauty State" to degrade another member (ie not me) to be disgraceful and even hypocritical in light of your last post. But then we are entitled to our opinions. Being able to have and express them with civility, as well as respecting those of others, is what makes an open forum work.

You are correct about this: our discourse has run its course. I believe it did so several rounds ago when you stopped saying anything new on the subject and only intensified the anger in your responses. To my fault, I let you guide that portion of the discussion and I let myself follow.

I hope we can agree that it has progressed to a level that neither chooses to advance.

Smile
Stephen Long
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And they all lived happily ever after...
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Hello.
Thomas Wayne
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Quote:
On 2002-03-14 12:12, Tom Cutts wrote:
[...]
You can not prove something doesn't exist.



No, but you CAN prove that the "something" (in this case an absurd theory) has not been demonstrated and is not supported by the facts.

Thomas Wayne
MOST magicians: "Here's a quarter, it's gone, you're an idiot, it's back, you're a jerk, show's over." Jerry Seinfeld
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