The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Rings, strings & things » » Ball and Tube (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5 [Next]
magicians
View Profile
Inner circle
Teacher and Legend
2898 Posts

Profile of magicians
Well, Walt, I search this site endlessly and defend my statements and products. I am not disputing the showmanship of Hillford's performances, as I have seen many great performances of the B&T. The story line and theatrics of his style lend itself to what would be good entertainment. My contention is, that one can perform an effect better than the originator just as some actors portray a scene better than the scripts author.
When it comes to claims of originiality and putting your name on another's work, that seems to be grounds to diminish the credibility of the perfomance no matter how compelling and effective.
I took an innocuous puzzle and decided to do it justice by using my own techniques as a base then adding contributions from Bob Olsen, Al Cohen, Roy Fromer and Walter Gibson, to name a few into a format fashioned after the instruction accessory booklets of my day. A few paragraphs or a line of text per routine, and an affordable price of $3 so as to fit the buyer of the "puzzle".
Hillford decided to sell his booklet for $20 and have the audacity to state that his was the only treatises on the B&T, when it is obvious to those who bought mine, that the style, and in some case exact passages of text are used including the exact same illustrations and ads.
You can perform Shakespeare like Sir Lawrence, but Sir Lawrence was not Shakespeare.
Oh, and one more thing. I actually did file a copyright on the material unlike a lot of authors who merely place the words "copyright" on their manuscripts.
Illusionist, Illusionist consulting, product development, stage consultant, seasoned performer for over 35 years. Specializing in original effects. Highly opinionated, usually correct, and not afraid of jealous critics. I've been a puppet, a pirate, a pawn and a King. Free lance gynecologist.
BenSalinas
View Profile
Special user
Coinoscenti
746 Posts

Profile of BenSalinas
Sorry to hear that Ian. I liked the idea of not having to use the gimmick, and still getting the effect. I had no idea about the plagiarism. I also have your booklet from years ago. I'll go re-read it!

Ben S
Your Friendly Neighborhood Coin Flinger

www.SalinasMagic.com

The Modern Coin Magic blog
www.ModernCoinMagic.com
magicians
View Profile
Inner circle
Teacher and Legend
2898 Posts

Profile of magicians
In my booklet, there are methods for doing effects without the gimmick. One is "squeeze play" the other is the "diminishing ball" from Walter Gibsons "400 tricks you can do" -1926. Gibson himself wrote the segment in 1980 for the book.
"heat of your hand", uses either tube to present a compelling arguement that the ball is larger (or the tube has shrunk), or the ball has shrunk (and the tube has enlarged. The ball is placed in the spectators hand after they had seen the ball too large for the tube. Then while in their hand, the ball shrinks so that it now is small enough to fall into the tube.
This "thread" on the best version of the b&t was to decide or suggest which b&t to use. Then, we seemed to get on best routines.
Illusionist, Illusionist consulting, product development, stage consultant, seasoned performer for over 35 years. Specializing in original effects. Highly opinionated, usually correct, and not afraid of jealous critics. I've been a puppet, a pirate, a pawn and a King. Free lance gynecologist.
SpellbinderEntertainment
View Profile
Inner circle
West Coast
3498 Posts

Profile of SpellbinderEntertainment
Ian wrote:
>I took an innocuous puzzle and decided
>to do it justice by using my own techniques

And that Ian, is absolutely the kind of magical thinking I applaud!
Taking a puzzle and making it a miracle is a worthwhile… if not stupendous feat.

I have only the live performances I’ve seen of Docc to witness the impact,
as I said, I can’t lay claim to knowing what is his and what he was “inspired” by.

If there are actual phrases used or even close paraphrases,
I’d certainly protect your copyright and demand credit or damages from Docc.

To see a $3 toy become a stunning performance of power though is rare.
I must again say, was a powerful lesson in magical potential.

Whether an actor interpreting Shakespeare or Shakespeare himself?
I’m clueless…
and bow to those with the historic research and ability to uncover the facts.

Magically,
Walt
Jimeh
View Profile
Inner circle
Ottawa, Ontario
1399 Posts

Profile of Jimeh
I am enjoying the discussion gentlemen so by all means carry on with talk of routines too. It's just I've never so much as seen the B&T up close that's why I had initially asked specifically about the props. Info on routines is more than welcome as well. Thanks folks!

James
magicians
View Profile
Inner circle
Teacher and Legend
2898 Posts

Profile of magicians
When I introduced my little booklet (the first edition), no-one had anything in print on the b&t. I wrote to dealers for their favorite demo, I researched the origins of the Brema's Brasses, and Jeff McBride (who demonstrated in my shop quite often at age 15) would bring what he had seen across the country.
My joy and passion was to fool the magician. So, when I went to National conventions with only ten items on my table and dared to show the "pros" the ball and tube, I fooled them. Most magi's said, I had that when I was a kid, or I know how it works. After just three of the contiguous routines the comment was, "I don't have that one", or "that fooled me".
Some favorite routines I do: Aside from the classic effect.
1)One tube routine where the ball drops on command-no gimmick, immediate handout.
2) multiplying balls from the tube
3) chop cup tube with mint final.
4) ball to coin or coin from tube
5) Jardin ellis tube routine
6) mini drum-head tube
7) fire to sponge ball from tube (mini-niffen tube)
8) liquid production from tube (why the ball floats)
Just to name a few.
Other effects:
Bob Olsen uses a silk to wear away the ball making it small enough to drop into the tube.
Gibson suggested using glass tubes.
Silk vanisher, silk production, more and more.

We shot a DVD of some of the moves and its in post production now.
Illusionist, Illusionist consulting, product development, stage consultant, seasoned performer for over 35 years. Specializing in original effects. Highly opinionated, usually correct, and not afraid of jealous critics. I've been a puppet, a pirate, a pawn and a King. Free lance gynecologist.
Jimeh
View Profile
Inner circle
Ottawa, Ontario
1399 Posts

Profile of Jimeh
Those effects sound amazing Magic Ian! Will the above mentioned effects appear
on the DVD you are referring to??
magicians
View Profile
Inner circle
Teacher and Legend
2898 Posts

Profile of magicians
The DVD was part of a sampler I usually include in my lecture (when time permits). I probably should expand it to all of the things mentioned, which are all covered in the booklet. Maybe even take some theatrical lessons from Docc.
You know, its hard to come up with this stuff and stay fresh and original, then to write and market it (5000 pcs on the first printing), then I sold it to Robbins.
Demos: when selling the effect to layman, 1 demo equals a sale, 8 out of ten when pitching the effect. Selling to magicians at conventions..if I get them to watch, its a sale.
Dramatic performance...never tried it.

--------
The first edition was a little longer than it is now, and it included more photos. Plus, a bio on Danny Tsukalis, the famous ball and tube demonstrator from Macy's in New York. I also had a section on Jackie Flosso who had his Brema collection of ball & Tubes in the Flosso shop. When Robbins did the edit to keep down the page count, he abreviated the book a bit.
--------
Another bit of trivia, was Ed Mishel doing the cover (a very expensive silver cover) which made the art work look like a silver ball and tube. Ed had done the original art work for Tannens catalog ball and tube cut. To avoid plageurism, Mishel did my artwork (from scratch) in reverse, with the apparatus in the other hand. Mishel (who did Genii review for years) was in love with the booklet.

Unfortunately the printer who did the photo-engraving, lost the original which was a 20"x30" poster. But, I cherish the book cover anyway.
Illusionist, Illusionist consulting, product development, stage consultant, seasoned performer for over 35 years. Specializing in original effects. Highly opinionated, usually correct, and not afraid of jealous critics. I've been a puppet, a pirate, a pawn and a King. Free lance gynecologist.
magicians
View Profile
Inner circle
Teacher and Legend
2898 Posts

Profile of magicians
I whipped up a quick demo on my kitchen table. Not a great video, but you can see an unedited series of effects. I had one hand on the zoom and the other on the trick. I am working on a polished DVD with explanations.
http://magicians.podbean.com/ball-tube-effects/
Illusionist, Illusionist consulting, product development, stage consultant, seasoned performer for over 35 years. Specializing in original effects. Highly opinionated, usually correct, and not afraid of jealous critics. I've been a puppet, a pirate, a pawn and a King. Free lance gynecologist.
Jimeh
View Profile
Inner circle
Ottawa, Ontario
1399 Posts

Profile of Jimeh
That was very cool! I really enjoyed watching that.
I think I'm just about sold on it now! LOL

thanks Ian!!

James
magicians
View Profile
Inner circle
Teacher and Legend
2898 Posts

Profile of magicians
As I said, I shot it quickly and cropped it tight cause I only had a t-shirt and shorts on. My favorites are with sponges, water, fire, flash paper and silks. The water one is a cool effect. I tell the spectators that the reason the ball floats up and down is the water in the tube. (I have a wax plug in the center of the tube allowing me to dump a water load). In my first edition, we filled a tube with solder and then glued the ball on the tube.
The trick still works, but we hand out a solid tube with a ball on the end. Right after that, John Kennedy came up with solid deception and sold it for a mint. Until then, there had been no new ball & tube apparatus. Couple of years later, the locking barrel version was re-released. I think I kind of started a craze.
Illusionist, Illusionist consulting, product development, stage consultant, seasoned performer for over 35 years. Specializing in original effects. Highly opinionated, usually correct, and not afraid of jealous critics. I've been a puppet, a pirate, a pawn and a King. Free lance gynecologist.
BCS
View Profile
Inner circle
1079 Posts

Profile of BCS
Ian,

Thanks for sharing the video; I really liked the Jardin Ellis Tube effect. I would not have thought of that in a million years.

Agent 61,

Thanks for starting this post, I have enjoyed it.

All take care,
Bruce
magicians
View Profile
Inner circle
Teacher and Legend
2898 Posts

Profile of magicians
Other miniatures of the large effects: That was my premise.
1)niffen tube: a) two sided chamber, one side has liquid, other side has sponge ball b) Match vanish flash of fire to silk.
2) drumhead tube
3) silk vanishing tube (magic tube silk vanisher)
4) silk appearance
5) chop cup (little difficult but works)

Single tube effects, double tube effects (showing two tubes), multiple ball effects, marble, mints, sponges

Transitions: steel ball to BB
steel ball to Zombie or Gertner type steel ball
Steel ball to coin using f--ding coin inside of tube. Will not hinder normal performance. Transitions from steel ball to coin effects.

In the 80's I wrote:
Best Dam Tricks- 18 tricks with the rubber dam
110 tricks w Svengali deck
110 tricks w stripper deck
magic w steel ball and tube
Haunted deck: book of revelations
Sutz Cutz: rope routine

My effects: all 4 stars in Genii
Disc-go-dime
Coin Balloon-acy
Traveling Silks: acrobatic silks without the bar
Dependalite match pulls
Slice of Hand ullusion (the armbox illusion)6 full champagne glasses
Refreshments: 6 full champagne glasses of liquid from any production box or tube.
Card-in-a locket
Pins n matches: matrix with matches and pins
Universal utility clip: used by McBride, Gertner, Burton and Irv Weiner to name a few.
Super-steal holdout
Pipsqueak card effect
Blendo tie- 2 silks change to men's tie
Blendo tie Patriotic: three silks to a flag tie
Flagtastick: red white and blue silks to flag on flagtastick
Diminishing Sponge Balls (my favorite and pure ungimmicked magic)
Illusionist, Illusionist consulting, product development, stage consultant, seasoned performer for over 35 years. Specializing in original effects. Highly opinionated, usually correct, and not afraid of jealous critics. I've been a puppet, a pirate, a pawn and a King. Free lance gynecologist.
Jimeh
View Profile
Inner circle
Ottawa, Ontario
1399 Posts

Profile of Jimeh
Quote:
On 2008-07-24 10:32, BCS wrote:
Agent 61,
Thanks for starting this post, I have enjoyed it.


I wasn't sure what response, if any, I would get but I'm glad I posted it too!!
I love how the video starts, taking the box out, removing the instructions wrapped around the B&T and away we go! LOL

Thanks again guys, many thanks!
Lawrence O
View Profile
Inner circle
Greenwich (CT)
6799 Posts

Profile of Lawrence O
Two ideas (I have no idea if they would be workable)
One is to use invisible thread between any ring on the ring finger and a Steve Fearson type of soft tension system on the body to be able to bring the inner tube up and down having the hand across the tube, rather than under one of its ends (just by moving the hand slightly forward or backwards).
The other one is to use a Sanada Gimmick with a rare earth magnet stuck in it as side magnet. There are several chop cup routines published with this concept. Actually there even was an English magician using the principle with a magnet stuck in his wand.
Naturally combining two elements in succession (cancelling the possibility of the other) would make it a killer as every human being is only looking for one unique solution.

What about John Kennedy's routine with the climax where the ball ends up welded on the tube? Any proactive comment on that one?
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
magicians
View Profile
Inner circle
Teacher and Legend
2898 Posts

Profile of magicians
The Kennedy effect was addressed in the original booklet which had the inner tube solid full of solder AND the ball was welded onto the rim.
Kennedy's version came out a few years after the book.
------
The thread is listed in the book, but not using invisible thread, as there is a tensil strength in lifting that heavy an object.
---------
The rare earth effect, of course, was only good in use with the ball. The dilemna was, that movement of the magnet tipped the effect as it was coinciding with the ball movement.
Also, the strength of that made it difficult to clean up.
There is a chop cup effect used in the booklet, but this was a beginner booklet and it went only so far. I recently saw an Agentinian magician with some excellant moves using that for a chop cup effect. I will address magnets in the upcoming DVD.
Illusionist, Illusionist consulting, product development, stage consultant, seasoned performer for over 35 years. Specializing in original effects. Highly opinionated, usually correct, and not afraid of jealous critics. I've been a puppet, a pirate, a pawn and a King. Free lance gynecologist.
Lawrence O
View Profile
Inner circle
Greenwich (CT)
6799 Posts

Profile of Lawrence O
What prevents using the magnet thanks to a shim in the inner tube if the outer one is brass?
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
David Todd
View Profile
Inner circle
1836 Posts

Profile of David Todd
Late to this discussion, but I have to give a ringing endorsement to the Ball & Tube book compiled by Magic Ian. (and way under-priced for what you get . It's worth a lot more) .

I walked into a Magic Shop back in 1996 with the last thing on my mind being the old Ball & Tube. Ian was behind the counter and was demo'ing the Ball & Tube and just killing with it. I bought the book.

The only update that EZ Magic should do is to hire Ian to shoot a DVD to go along with the book, except that I'm afraid the video from the DVD would get ripped and posted on YouTube . Some things are maybe better "hidden in plain sight" in a cheap little $3.00 booklet from EZ Magic.

Get the book if you have any interest in doing this effect .

----

EDIT: oh, wait , I just noticed that earlier in this thread Ian posted:


Quote:
"We shot a DVD of some of the moves and its in post production now."


Ok, so it is coming out as a DVD supplement to the book. I think that will be good to have , but again I hope that it can be protected so that certain types of people don't end up posting these moves on YouTube.
Leland Stone
View Profile
Inner circle
1204 Posts

Profile of Leland Stone
Ditto on the kudos for Ian's "little" book -- easily a contender for best Magic value going. $3? Are you kidding? You could drop more than that on a pretentious Slurpee at StealBucks. Or, you could get all the dope Ian put together and turn it into a world-class bit of entertainment, like Kurt did over at Best Magic. Drop by sometime and ask him real nice if he'll share it with you.
magicians
View Profile
Inner circle
Teacher and Legend
2898 Posts

Profile of magicians
Quote:
On 2008-08-12 20:23, Lawrence O wrote:
What prevents using the magnet thanks to a shim in the inner tube if the outer one is brass?

I wrote that booklet in he 1980, and PK rings and strong magnets were not an issue of invention. I believe that a shim in the inner T---, would indeed work as a method of perfomance. The idea, however, was to limit the gimmickry to the apparatus received.
I will play with your idea while shooting the DVD.
Illusionist, Illusionist consulting, product development, stage consultant, seasoned performer for over 35 years. Specializing in original effects. Highly opinionated, usually correct, and not afraid of jealous critics. I've been a puppet, a pirate, a pawn and a King. Free lance gynecologist.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Rings, strings & things » » Ball and Tube (1 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2021 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.19 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL