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Gork
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Hello!

First: I do not know if my question is correct here but I think so. If not, please move it and let me know.

I am thinking of buying a "raven like" pull or something.
I do know the raven and was VERY disappointed of it. It was like put together after walking through the house with elastics insted of a good pull etc.

So to make it short I like good crafted things that are worth their money but do not like to pay 2000 bucks cause this is a hobby for me.

With this in mind I wonder what you would propose I should buy maybe.

I read about the Gecko, the Black Widow, the M5 System and know the Raven.

I would like to do raven like things mainly atm. I read all this should be doable with the Gecko too. Is it more professionally built?

Would you recomend something other (up to maybe 500$)?
Why? Pro / Cons ?

Thanks!
Andi Peters
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I use the perfect pull.
ftlum
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IMHO, it's not really the build quality (unless the thing breaks) in a holdout / pull-- it's what you do with it that counts. After all, the spectator never sees the pull.

Look at Al Baker's Lightning Pull, for instance. The materials you'd need to make one are really cheap, but there's a lot of magic to be had (just watch John Carney). Perhaps what you're reacting to is the perceived value of the product (and if you could have made it yourself) for the amount of money spent. The Raven can create incredibly magical vanishes despite its simplicity and low cost. My only complaint with the Raven is getting it set up on your hand-- I find that a bit tricky.

From your post, I think you'd be disappointed by things like the Black Widow. It's a bulky item with more moving parts, but I thought it was overpriced, myself. You might like Romero's Perfect Holdout. You can't easily make it and he provides a nice DVD with some routines to work on.

Of course, if you really are looking for "well built" items, you can get a Fitch-Kohler holdout. Generally speaking, you get what you pay for.
Gork
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Thanks for your help, here my thoughts on some points:

Quote:
IMHO, it's not really the build quality .... it's what you do with it that counts.

This is the point. Many might see it this way but I don't. One could easyly argument a cheap $10 rusty bike made of differnt junkyard parts can drive you from A to B but I prefer to spend $500 and get a well crafted one I can use for 10+ years and not only can drive but can drive MUCH better and it looks great!

Same as the thing about "noone needs realistic TT's I could do with a green one"...
Maybe but noone would use a old Grammophone instead his mp3 player just cause "it can play music also". You can do more things better with modern technic so why do not use it Smile

Quote:
After all, the spectator never sees the pull.

But I do and I pay for it, not the spectator Smile

Quote:
The Raven can create incredibly magical vanishes despite its simplicity and low cost.

Maybe but in my eyes it would not cost many more and you could have a well crafted thing with some better attributes.

Quote:
From your post, I think you'd be disappointed by things like the Black Widow. It's a bulky item with more moving parts, but I thought it was overpriced, myself. You might like Romero's Perfect Holdout. You can't easily make it and he provides a nice DVD with some routines to work on.

Of course, if you really are looking for "well built" items, you can get a Fitch-Kohler holdout. Generally speaking, you get what you pay for.


Ok, heard good things about the 2 already so I will look on them more in detail. Any Idea or links where I might see some demos or read some details on them?

I atm can not afford 2k for a holdout cause it is a hobby for me but if it is that good I maybe will later sometime and have to wait.

Just to be not misunderstood: I have no problem with "If one could reconstruct easily". I surely could reconstruct nearly everything cause I am good in mechanics and electronics BUT I would not do if I can buy good quality cause it is not worth the effort!

It just needs to be well built and good functioning and not totally overpriced Smile
L Trunk
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Do a search on here for perfect holdout. There are lots of reviews and links. Romero himself has a lot of stuff up at: http://www.themagicworkshop.com/
PatrickGregoire
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Gork, the Raven's elastic is meant to be weak, it keeps it silent. There is nothing cheap about the Raven. It does what it's supposed to do and unless you're thinking of adding glitter glue to it, there's nothing you can do to make it look better. What I mean is there's just no point in making it look better. The better it looks, the more it'll cost 'ya. Why pay more for something to look good if it's not meant to be seen.
Gork
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Maybe this is my personal style. I hated the raven cause many points... I try to describe my personal feelings as I got this...

1. The fluffy stuff around the M. could be better quality.
2. The M. could be much smaller and even as stong the same time.
3. The huge hooks at each side of M. could be finer crafted
4. Instead of the elastic what IS used you could either use a reel where you set up The needed strenght or a elastic of better quality.
5. The anchor is silent but really cheap made.
6. I payed freakin 45€ or 65€ for this at the time here in Germany!

BUT... I now saw in the US the Raven costs something like $20 so I see why it is built this way. So no comparision to the German price Smile

I read about the perfect holdout and Black Widdow and Gecko I could find.
The Perfect Holdout plus I saw pictures of and it looks good, so this will probably be one of my investments (Just to mention to the producers who are making a big secret of the device I maybe would not have without seeing pictures).

On the Perfect Holdout I saw a video about a dicechange (http://cyngaporemagic.com/doc/doc's%20dice%20switch.mov). Is this really done with THIS holdout? Cause he sits on the table and I cannot see (without having it tested) if this would really work with it.

Ok... Brainerror - Tilt - Overload ... Beeeep - Knack prrrt... Now I saw he is standing Smile sorry

The Gecko I got much positive feedback so I will probably invest in it too.

About the Black widow I am not sure... I could not really figure out what it seems to be until now. Is this a type of the old style Gambler Holdout which really HOLDS OUT something? Or did I misinterprete what I read?
PatrickGregoire
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Gork, there IS a reel version of the Raven. It's called the Reel Raven. And I don't get why you want a better quality anchor if you say it works and it silent. It won't break as it is and it does exactly what it's supposed to do. What will a better quality anchor give you? I agree on the fluffy stuff being cheap. It even comes off easily once you use it.

The black widow is a bulky device that takes loads of practice to use elegantly. It brings things in and out of play at the hands (or in their hands, if you're transforming something in their hands).
ftlum
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One other thing I'd mention-- pulls and holdouts don't exactly do the same thing. For instance, my FK holdout can't really reproduce the Raven effect quite the same way, desite its ability to generally do more things (eg. bringing things into play). So before you settle on something, you may wish to think about what you need it to do.

One of my big gripes with the Trabucco holdout was the advertisement stating the vanishes are at the fingertips (or something along those lines); they aren't-- again the effect differs depending on the device. (BTW, if you didn't like the Raven, you'll hate the Trabucco holdout.)
Gork
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On the Raven:
I now saw it is a reel verrsion on the market. Maybe it was not back then as I bought or I did not see it in our shops. But now beeing fooled with it I surely will never again buy one.

Trabucco is stationary as I read so this one is not what I look for.

I like to perform sleeves up as much as possoble (short sleeve shirt). With sleight modifications you can do Raven like things with other pulls or holdouts too.
Perfect Holdout: Just need a ring and maybe long sleves but possible. I never wear a watch so I need tomodify there too but this should be no problem and from the product pictures it looks good to me. Thumbs up for someone who shows his product and has trust in his work.

I (in the best case) look for some device(es) to pick AND deliver (optimum case even while sitting but not really condition). It should be small and easy to hide but if it can do more/better then can be some larger. I like to do Raven like effects with it too. I would like it to be as general useable as possible (Must not be one device but would be best!).

For my understanding the word holdout has gone through many changes in the magic community. What pops in my mind if I hear this word are the old fashioned gambler ones you strap to your forearm and which deliver the e.g. "extra card".
The trabucco sure would not fall into that category for me as far as I read the forums. I would call such a holder but not holdout (maybe misinterpreted what it seems to be).

I know the difference between holdout and pull but you might do similar things with holdouts (as I define them) in the most cases.

On the Black Widow:
Can anyone tell me if it is something like the gambler holdouts or not pls? It seems good to me from all I read (maybe not the quality as one said but the idea?). The only thing I do not really like is the "obscure motion of the hands" you can see in the demo video (sideways, then forward).

(Practise or not is no condition on buying for me. Sure I hate long learning but if I need I do.)
Gork
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Ok got feedback from my magic dealer on the BW. Seems to be a classich HO but he also told me I will be disapointed from the quality if I did not like the raven.
So I think cause it is a classic holdout I maybe will give it a try too besides the quality.

So I got 3 I am interested in now ARGH! Need to spare some money for it next month Smile
ftlum
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The Black Widow is a quite bulky device for which you'll need to wear a jacket. It will let you deliver things to the hand, so it's closer to what you need, but I think you will be disappointed with build quality, especially for the price you pay.
David Todd
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Has anyone purchased Rocco's "Ultimate Sleeving Device" ?

http://www.dlite.com/catalog/product_inf......ts_id=54


I have to admit I'm a little surprised that he shows exactly how it works (and what it is ) on his public website that anyone (not just magicians) can access . Wouldn't it be better to password protect areas of the website like this ? (as far as the D'lites it doesn't matter anymore. D'lite isn't a magic effect anymore , it's a toy... which is too bad. It was a nice visual effect for a while until it was over-sold by magic kiosks in malls and casinos and now you can get them at Toys R Us)

Anyway, it's a good idea, and I've seen similar set-ups in magazines and other people's lecture notes so I don't think it's necessarily Rocco's original idea (maybe it is ? But seems like it is just a common sense way to attach a m _ _ _ _ _ to one's arm with an ace bandage or something similar . )
Gork
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Ok, then... Is there a let's say "Black Widow like" thing with better build quality?
ftlum
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Gork
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Good link, yes there are some like what I personally do understand as holdout (e.g. the "ARM-PRESSURE SLEEVE HOLDOUT", "PNEUMATIC HOLDOUT" or the "KEPPLINGER HOLDOUT" wherby the "RING HOLDOUT" would fall into the category "holder" to me). Maybe this is a language issue too.
ftlum
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Okay, I think I know what your'e looking for. Aside from the Black Widow (which is sort of a pulley type of system), I'm not aware of anyone selling that style of holdout. I think I read somewhere that James Riser had been refurbishing a Kepplinger style holdout, but I think the ones he was planning for sale were gravity based.

Your best bet, I think, is going to be a Black Widow (with the caveats I mentioned previously).


- Frank
Gork
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Thanks.
Gork
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Ok ordered the Widow as the first one so Gecko and Perfect Holdout have to wait for next months salary Smile
LukeB
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Don't see why you would need BW aswell as PH.don't they both do the same thing?
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