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Donald Dunphy
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Victoria, BC, Canada
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Also keep in mind that some you encounter would rather be right in what they initially thought & said, as opposed to consider another point of view. But that shouldn't stop you from trying to explain to them initially.

- Donald

P.S. I like this quote (read it in an Andre Kole book):

"I love magicians because they are honest men", said author Elbert Hubbard. "They tell you they are going to fool you and then proceed to do it. But no matter what happens at the show, when you get home you will still have your watch, your pocketbook, and your appendix, and that is more than I can say for some of my non-magician aquaintances."
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
Ed_Millis
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Yuma, AZ
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Quote:
On 2008-08-16 01:11, MagicMatthews wrote:
but what could you say then may be happening spiritually for the person who sees the Christian illusionist and calls it satanic? As I mentioned earlier, this has happened only once to me, and that was a long time ago.


I don't think that's my responsibility. As long as I am confident in what I am doing as far as presenting entertainment or lessons or what have you, and I am not trafficing in evil spiritual powers nor trying to make others believe that I am and they can too, then I am of a clear conscience. Whatever is going on in the other person's mind is not in my power to control.

I actually did this to a world-class performer one time - I accused him of using demon powers because "I can see no other way you could have done that!" Oh, the pride and arrogance behind that statement that I could not then see!

We see someone who can do complex math in their head, or create an epic novel or beautiful song, and we marvel at their possession of gifts and skills far beyond us. But we see someone who can pull a silk from a TT and call him a devil??!? Are we too proud to say, "You are far more clever than I!" Are we too proud to admit there are things we don't know? And some things we "absolutely know!" are wrong?

If a person is not willing to give me the benefit of any shade of doubt, and will not engage me in a serious discussion with the intent on being humble enough to be wrong, then I am not worried in the least what my presentation is doing to them spiritually - their own pride and lack of teachability is doing far more damage than I could ever do!

Ed
Terry Owens
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Ft. Wayne, Indiana
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I actually had a lady call me who saw me perform on Christian Television to tell me that she was bothered by it, but I told her that we had seen many people saved and if God endorses what I do, then it's fine with me.

I've seen 31 saved this week in one program alone...
Hushai
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Quote:
On 2008-08-16 10:48, ChrisG wrote:
As far as being ask about magic being deception, I ask the person if they watch TV. Is that deception or entertainment?


I would answer that it's both deception AND entertainment. That is my point. Some, if not all, entertainment has an element of deception in it. As Elbert Hubbard seems to have been saying(see Donald Dunphy's post above -- that's a good quote!), magicians are "HONEST deceivers." They deceive you, but in the very nature of what magical entertainment is, you KNOW you're being deceived, and you love it (we hope). And that's O.K.!

A paradox: a bad magician promises to deceive you, and doesn't -- you see through his tricks -- so, you have been deceived in a different way, and this time you don't like it at all! Smile
Terry Owens
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Wouldn't you say a critical part of deception is that a person is unawares that they are being deceived? That's the thing about deception...those who are being deceived don't know they are...Those who attend our programs know that we are not really doing "magic" and know that there is some sort of method we are using...if you go to a restaurant and order a specialty that they never reveal the receipe, is that deception? No...you're enjoying the benefits of the meal, you don't have to know how they created it. Those who watch us perform may not know how we do it, they just know it's not real, but enjoy the entertainment value, or lessons that we teach.

Now if you're trying to come across as having real powers...that's deception and you're in a whole other category by yourself.

For those poor souls who actually think we are working real magic...they have been subjected to wrong thinking or bad teaching. You could create a small handout that could give to help them understand the correct nature of our ministries.
Hushai
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Quote:
On 2008-08-17 05:57, Terry Owens wrote:
Wouldn't you say a critical part of deception is that a person is unawares that they are being deceived? That's the thing about deception...those who are being deceived don't know they are...


I disagree. I can deceive MYSELF, as when I pretend something: one part of my mind deceives another part. This is what keeps psychoanalysts in business. But I believe some self-deception is healthy and normal, as when we behave as though the map is the territory, even though we know it isn't, or when we "make believe".

Magic HAS to be deception, or the attempt at it. It's deception even when I KNOW you're deceiving me, if I don't know the method whereby you're doing that: are you using a force in this card trick? Or controlling the card to the top of the deck? Or what? Even an experienced magician may not be sure, and so may be deceived by another magician. Both of them know it's not "real" magic, but one may still deceive the other, about something.

I am trying to be philosophical and theological here. I am trying to examine the most basic meanings of "deception." It is a matter of definition, but I think what I am saying comes closer to the truth of what we are doing in performing magic.
uncleperry
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Hushai,
Afraid I have to agree with Terry here. Deception, by definition, requires the recipient to walk away "unaware" of the fact it has happened. I follow the process you're explaining; just think a different word would make a better label. We don't want anyone to link "deception" and "Christian". It should never be our goal to deceive.
'unc.
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and that's usually good enough to make a decent living.
'unc.
Mark005
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Well, then take it another way. You can't watch any movie about Jesus because the actor playing him really isn't Jesus, so THAT is deception.

Oh, wait, that means we can't watch most movies or tv shows, because those actors are deceving us because they are not the people they claim to be.

Hmmm... we have to throw out works of fiction as well, its not real, its deception!

Fatuous as it was, I hope my example will serve to point out the problem with their position.

Moreover, when the Bible speaks to magic and witchcraft, it is really speaking about making people believe you are speaking for God, or have God's powers when you do not. You know, putting a radio reciever in your ear and saying you hear the voice of the Lord.

I find it highly unlikely that anyone would believe that a person making cardbord rabbits change color, or rings link and unlink, is saying this is a miracle from God.

Which brings us to the problem with this topic. When we bring mentalism into the world of Gospel Magic, the question is, "Is the line I am doing tricks, not using unseen powers" clear?

Pulling a rabbit out of a hat is very different in the minds of the audience, than showing them you know what they are thinking, or wnat they were going to do before they did it. All disclaimers aside, to the lay audience, that is not "magic".

In my own Church I caused some discomfort by calling myself a conjurer. If you look the word up, it says in the defination "one that performs slight of hand or illusion". It shook so many people up I was asked to use the word "magician".

IMHO, and I am aware others will disagree, mentalism in gospel magic is a bad idea. Not only because of how it will be viewed, but how difficult it will be to do mentalism and take the focus off of you to put it on the Lord.

Just my thoughts...
MagicMatthews
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I think that yes, we have to be clear about what we're doing to avoid confusion. Some people think that the magician actually is doing magic. Unfortunately, this is reinforced by some out there who present themselves as having real powers.

I think if our presentation is truly entertaining, then a lot of these things are not really an issue. The entertainment value can misdirect them to avoid thinking about our magic as real "magic."

Also, in regards to mentalism: Mentalism is more a style of presenting an effect, rather than the effect itself. e.g. I use the Sketch-O-Magic all the time, but I would not call it mentalism, however It could easily be considered mentalism if I choose to present it that way.

Quote:
On 2008-08-19 07:15, Mark005 wrote:
In my own Church I caused some discomfort by calling myself a conjurer. If you look the word up, it says in the defination "one that performs slight of hand or illusion". It shook so many people up I was asked to use the word "magician".

Ha - that's funny.
Don't get even... Get odd!
Hushai
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Quote:
On 2008-08-18 19:07, uncleperry wrote:
It should never be our goal to deceive.
'unc.


Then, we can't do magic. Have you never read in a magic book any sentence like "This move is very deceptive"? It's always intended as a recommendation when the author writes that, not a condemnation of the move. "Deceptive" means "useful for deception." We have to face it -- magic, in our sense, IS deception, and that's O.K.
drkptrs1975
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The Only Resistance I have gotten was people think it is deception and that is wrong. Actually in the Bible God has actaully bless Deception. It is only wrong when it's only goal is to benifit you or destory someone else, other than that, deception is OK.
MagicMatthews
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Quote:
On 2008-08-21 22:05, drkptrs1975 wrote:
Actually in the Bible God has actaully bless Deception.

Would you like to elaborate?
Don't get even... Get odd!
Terry Holley
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Quote:
On 2008-08-21 22:31, MagicMatthews wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-08-21 22:05, drkptrs1975 wrote:
Actually in the Bible God has actaully bless Deception.

Would you like to elaborate?


How about Rahab?

Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
MagicMatthews
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Good example. Here deception was used to achieve God's purposes.
Don't get even... Get odd!
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