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BarryFernelius Inner circle Still learning, even though I've made 2537 Posts 
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On 2008-08-12 18:23, Steven Youell wrote: And then, some others say that all other factors being equal (which can never be demonstrated in real life, as it turns out), some tricks are more powerful than others. I can only speak from my own experience, and it doesn't represent a statistical sample. In this case, I'm not going to compare two different tricks. Instead, I'm going to examine one trick: Burling Hull's Mental Photography. At first, I performed the effect with the generic instructions that came with the effect. It elicited good responses. Next, I added a presentational frame based on the idea that the cards were a Generic Deck, suitable for everyday household use. I even made a Generic Deck box that looked just like the generic products that appeared in the supermarkets back in the 1980s. The addition of the presentational frame and my additional performing experience combined to create a stronger impact on my audiences. But I started to face a problem: the generic product craze had run its course, and my presentational frame was no longer topical. I needed a new way to perform Mental Photography. This time, I came up with a small modification of the prop to make the trick more effective. I created a brand new script that fit me perfectly. The new version of Mental Photography had a beginning, a middle and and end. The presentation had a satisfying built-in logic, and I had a strong passion for the presentation of the effect. The effect on audiences is at least a hundred times stronger than my initial effort, but it's not due to the trick. Heck, I was doing the same trick in each case. The only thing that changed was my performing ability. Your mileage may vary, etc.
"To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and not quite enough time."
-Leonard Bernstein |
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts
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On 2008-08-12 21:28, Andrew Musgrave wrote: OK, let's take your example. What do you consider "impact"? How do you measure it? Is it how long someone remembers the performer or the trick? Or could it be a measure of adrenaline increase? How would you measure that? See, my whole point is this: People who argue that a trick has human traits (like the ability to impress someone) have no evidence, no way to meaure anything, haven't defined their terms and usually end up making smarmy comments like the one quoted above on internet magic forums. Until then, I'll stick with evidence, experience and logic while you guys keep wasting your time looking for a trick or sleight that will compensate for a sub-standard ability in performing ability and personality. Steven Youell |
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts
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Aw Steve, I was just kidding around.
For what it's worth, my position has always been to combine great presentational prowess with sound construction and flawless execution. The "killer trick" isn't the entirety of that equation, but it is a part of it.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts
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The problem is that unless people hammer in the point I made in my first post (in this thread), we will continue to see people tryinjg to find tricks or sleights that will compensate for a sub-standard ability in performing ability and personality.
I therefore, have instituted a personal "Zero Tolerance" policy, because the very nature of the question demonstrates a fundamental lack of discernment. Your point should only be considered by someone who has spent enough time to develop discernment. Answering any other way than my first post is making the problem worse. Check out some of the recent threads here: What tricks get a standing ovation? What easy tricks get a huge impact? What tricks don't require practice but will make me famous? I'm leaving to do a show in 20 minutes, what should I do? Yes, the titles above contain parodies, but you should get my point. DO NOT ARM TERRORISTS! Steven Youell |
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts
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Steven,
I'm not going to argue your point. I will suggest, though, if you get a chance, check out the following thread, as it seems to be directly relevant to your argument, albeit in apparently establishing a contrary stance. http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......um=27&71 For a sneak preview... Quote: On 2008-08-02 14:58, Whit Haydn wrote:
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts
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Andrew,
I disagree with your assesment. In order for you to demonstrate that Whit, Darwin and I have contrary points, we'd all have to sit down and agree on definitions for presentation, trick, effect, amazing, entertaining, etc. For example, Whit may mean something different by "Presentation" than I do. From the looks of his initial post, I think he does. I know both Whit and Darwin and I can tell you that we see things in much the same way. I'll give you an example of what I mean: Is the skill with which you handle sponge balls part of the presentation? Doesn't that make the difference in the success of the trick? Does "presentation" mean just a patter line or does it include the personality of the performer? Does it include the words of the performer? Does it include the the fact that the sponge balls might or might not have stains on them? There are some tricks in which the sheer impossibility of the effect is strong enough that it does not require a patter line about "Cannibals", "The Marx Brothers" or anything else. Such a trick is "The Signed Card". In this trick, if the sleights are performed competently, mere expositional patter that emphasized the impossibility and/or fairness would suffice for a presentation. HOWEVER-- mumbling those words, stumbling over the sentences and NOT choosing words that emphasized the conditions and the impossibilities would STILL make the effect rather blase. Forgive me if I'm rambling here, but this is "Off The Cuff". Steven Youell |
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The Burnaby Kid Inner circle St. John's, Canada 3158 Posts
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Steven,
Believe me, it's not my intention to pit you against Haydn or Ortiz or anything like that. However, there does seem to be a fundamental difference between this statement from yourself... "No trick creates an impact. Only performers can create impact. Anyone who doesn't truly understand that, will never graduate from being a tyro." ...and this statement from Whit... "There are tricks that are so amazing and entertaining in themselves that they don't need any presentation, and anyone who can accomplish the trick can get great reactions and results." If there is a difference, it's a subtle one that I'm too dim to comprehend. I'd be thrilled to have it clarified for me.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free card magic resource for beginners.
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silverking Inner circle 4574 Posts
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The link to the exchange twixt Whit and JackScratch and a few others is one duplicated quite a few times on the Café down on those forums that aren't the most visited.
Although they'd both say they were simply disagreeing and holding an academic conversation, they actually hate each other, and dig out their dictionaries to find the bigger words for their next post. Within days, one of them will take his Tonka toys and go home. I find this thread to be far more relevant to the topic than the linked thread. Following Whit's logic, David Blaine would kill with the sponge bunnies. Following JackScratch's line of thinking, magic carries the same impact as mime. They're both so convinced that they're right (and more importantly that the other is wrong) I find no value in their exchanges. Frankly, they both need to take "ego-reduction" pills. |
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spatlind Special user still moving 863 Posts
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What about those that perform silently? Of course, the effect still needs to be "presented" but for me this means "shown", i.e., show someone a trick. In this scenario, surely there needs to be a certain amount of intrigue, relevance or something inherently impressive or interesting about the trick regardless of the performer. The effect can be "presented" with confidence and surety, but surely there is something to be said for the selection of effect in this scenario. (if the elicitation of standing ovation etc is the desired result)
Actions lie louder than words - Carolyn Wells
I believe in God, only I spell it Nature - Frank Lloyd Wright. |
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Open Traveller Inner circle 1087 Posts
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Steven, you first wrote:
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No trick creates an impact. Those are unequivocal statements. Either/Or. This or that. Not much room for leeway of any kind. And then you wrote: Quote:
The only evidence I've seen people offer is anecdotal. So, rather than argue why our stances are wrong, perhaps you'd care to argue why yours is right. No anecdotes, please. Empirical evidence only. I'm interested. |
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BarryFernelius Inner circle Still learning, even though I've made 2537 Posts
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Presentation is so much more than the speaking of words! See Juan Tamariz's The Five Points in Magic for a succinct description of how a magician can use his/her entire body to communicate the sensation of magic to the audience.
"To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and not quite enough time."
-Leonard Bernstein |
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spatlind Special user still moving 863 Posts
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Barry, I have read The Five Points and I fully agree that presentation is so much more than words. My point, perhaps badly made, is that trick selection is important to presentation in terms of venue etc, and therefore, some tricks are inherently "better" than others.
Scott
Actions lie louder than words - Carolyn Wells
I believe in God, only I spell it Nature - Frank Lloyd Wright. |
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BarryFernelius Inner circle Still learning, even though I've made 2537 Posts
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You're right; some tricks are inherently better in some venues than others. That's why you should never use the transposition of a dime and a penny as an effect in a stage show. But wait, that's a bad example; Emil Jarrow used to close his act with that effect.
OK, that's why you must never do the vanishing bird cage as a close up effect. Unless you happen to have the presentation and skills of Bert Allerton... It's so confusing. (Standard disclaimer: the preceding post was intended to be light hearted. It is not an attack on any person, living or dead. Everyone please lighten up. Thanks!)
"To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and not quite enough time."
-Leonard Bernstein |
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spatlind Special user still moving 863 Posts
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Ok I'll run away and hide now!
Maybe this is it. For me, great magicians create great presentations around effects that they believe are worth their effort.
Actions lie louder than words - Carolyn Wells
I believe in God, only I spell it Nature - Frank Lloyd Wright. |
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts
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On 2008-08-12 23:00, Open Traveller wrote: I'm implying that it would take empirical evidence to convince me to abandon what I consider to be a logical position-- that of not embracing anthropomorphism. I certainly believe some tricks are better than others. I do not believe, however, that tricks (in and of themselves) can create things or elicit human emotions. If you do, have a party. Steven Youell |
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spatlind Special user still moving 863 Posts
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Steven
Do you think that phenomena can elicit human emotion? Scott My understanding of anthropomorphism notwithstanding!
Actions lie louder than words - Carolyn Wells
I believe in God, only I spell it Nature - Frank Lloyd Wright. |
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts
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On 2008-08-12 22:28, Andrew Musgrave wrote: OK-- first, although I haven't read the entire thread, it seems to me like the discussion there started by discussing whether bad tricks and good tricks exist. They do. What I said in the quote above is that tricks do not have creative power. That's the difference between the two statements you quoted above. I certainly believe that some tricks are better than others. (If I stated otherwise, please let me know-- I've been busy today...!) In construction, movement, method and other factors some tricks are superior to others. But do they have the power to create? Do they have the power to elicit amazement without being performed? I don't think so. Yet, this is the mistake that the vast majority of magicians make time and time again. Assuming that a superior trick will compensate for a miserable performer. Looking for that trick that will excuse them from taking responsibility for the results. That's why threads with this type of title just irritate me. Executing the moves necessary to accomplish the Sponge Ball trick is a presentation. A presentation of the lowest level, but the mere fact that you place a ball in someone's hand and lead them through the steps is still a presentation. The man he mentioned that walked by and reduced the sugar bowl to powder without saying a word had a presentation. He deliberately chose to be silent, he waved his hand and he chose which effects that he would combine to get you to come see the show. So if you have a poor presentation and still get a good response, does that mean it's a good trick? Could be, but I think there's other factors involved as well. Now think about this. Get a layperson to read a description of the Sponge Ball Effect (without the method)-- just a description of what happens. Do you get a strong emotional reaction? No. Because without a performer, the trick is a lifeless sequence of events. I'll say it again in a different way: Effects do not have creative powers. Performers have creative powers. Thanks for listening. Quote:
On 2008-08-12 23:00, BarryFernelius wrote: I disagree. Good presentation is so much more than the speaking of words. Quote:
On 2008-08-13 00:15, spatlind wrote: That is an excellent question. Could we tighten up the definition of phenomena? Sunsets? Northern Lights? Or are we talking about objects that move by themselves, ghosts, and/or statues of the Mother Mary that bleed? Steven Youell |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27300 Posts
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Why yes, I guess that is the card you showed before then shuffled into the pack... but why should I care?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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BarryFernelius Inner circle Still learning, even though I've made 2537 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-08-13 00:23, Steven Youell wrote: With all due respect, bad presentation is also so much more than the speaking of words! I've seen performers who had reasonably good scripts but whose acts were destroyed by their complete misunderstanding of how to use body language. Of course, I'll defer to your extensive experience, and let you have the last word. (But I wish you could see my body language at this moment.  )
Quote:
On 2008-08-13 00:22, Steven Youell wrote: Exactly! That's a great way of putting it.
"To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and not quite enough time."
-Leonard Bernstein |
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Steven Youell V.I.P. 3866 Posts
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On 2008-08-13 00:37, BarryFernelius wrote: You've known me too long to use that phrase, Barry... Quote:
I've seen performers who had reasonably good scripts but whose acts were destroyed by their complete misunderstanding of how to use body language. Do you mean to say that wonderfully contructed effects can be butchered to such an extent by a performer that his audience would react in a negative fashion? And that an excellent performer could take an otherwise below average effect and make an audience remember him for a very long time? Heresy! How could that be? After all, the standing ovations, the high impact desired by almost every magician out there can be generated by having just the right effect, right? Steven Youell (Your fellow heretic) |
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| The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The workers » » Fellow Magicians - Know Any 'Simple' Tricks That Create a 'Big Impact'??? (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
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Posted: Aug 13, 2008 01:34 am 
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