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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » Owen 100 Anniversary Copper Cups (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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RevJohn
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Oregon City Oregon, Oregon
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Greetings all,

I have a set of Owen's 100th Anniversary Cups made from Copper, and wondering what a fair value would be for them? They have been sitting on my shelf, perfect shape, and they told me they are thinking of moving...

Have no clue what they are worth... I bought them second hand, I think for around 300.00

Does that sound right?

RevJohn
Mr. Muggle
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Were the Owen's cups a limited run? If so, how many sets were made? Who spun them?
"Now you're looking for the secret... but you won't find it because you're not really looking. You don't really want to know the secret... You want to be fooled." - The Prestige (2006)
RevJohn
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Oregon City Oregon, Oregon
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Good questions, and ones I don't have an answer to.

Perhaps someone here will help shed light on my mystery!

RevJohn
walid ahumada
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sinaloa, mexico
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“Magic becomes art when it has nothing to hide.” BEN OKRI quote
geemack
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Greg McNeil Peoria,Illinois
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Rev,

Sounds like you're in the right ballpark at around $300. I have a stainless steel set. They're almost exactly the same size and shape as the Riser Standards, a fraction of an inch shorter, just a hair less height on the skirt section. Very similar to RNT2's SBL Shibby Standard Working Cups.

As with all Owen products, the quality is second to none. They are excellent cups for tennis ball loads, with a clean single bead design, they hold three 1" balls in the attic (if I recall correctly). I'm sure Jim Riser and Jake would agree that these Owen cups rival most any of the stuff they make.

Here's the link to my review of these cups from July, 2005.

Greg
Mobius303
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Lakewood, Ohio
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The cups are limited editions.
They also have a wand to go with the cups. They appear to still be available on the site.
You need to call for a price.
The $300 is reasonable at this time as they sell them new (copper and stainless) for $350 and the Gold was $750 last time I checked. The prices may have changed based on the price of the metals, I would call to ask. Their line went to voice mail when I called tonight.
For a pic:
http://www.owenmagic.com/100th/Cups3Metals_Wand.jpg

For the order page listing:
http://www.owenmagic.com/100th/Ann_items.html

Hope that helps,
Mobius
RevJohn
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Oregon City Oregon, Oregon
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Thanks guys for all your help and information.

RevJohn
Pete Biro
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I have the stainless set. Love 'em
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
Mr. Muggle
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IMO with so many cups on the market and this set still selling, if it were me, I would wait to sell unless you are forced to.
"Now you're looking for the secret... but you won't find it because you're not really looking. You don't really want to know the secret... You want to be fooled." - The Prestige (2006)
deadcatbounce
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the Wilds of Ireland
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Hi,...

Can anyone explain to me why 3 cups, no matter what the material is, should command $300 and upwards? I don't do the cups and balls, but I do have a set of aluminium cups I bought years ago... Now, ok.. they wouldn't take the beating that copper ones would, but even so... the price seems excessive...
Just what is the gauge of metal these are made from, and what makes them so expensive, with the technology of today?

Cheers!

DCB
"With every mistake - we must surely be learning..." George Harrison.
Pete Biro
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Simple. People are willing to pay the prices.
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
Bill Palmer
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Why don't you try doing a search on it? There has been a lot posted about this.

I'll give you one hint. Most cups are made of copper. The cost of copper, which is only a minor part of the cost of the cups, has increased by a factor of 4+ over the past five years. That's just for raw copper. Rolled copper has increased even more. Next, there is the cost of labor. High quality cups are hand spun. The cost of metal spinning has more than doubled over the past two years.

Most cup manufacturers actually farm out their work. Some, such as Morrissey, do their work in house, so they can absorb the costs of labor. Still, in order to keep their cups competitive, they have had to use thinner sheets of copper than their competition.

The technology of today has little to do with it. Some manufacturers do use computerized spinning -- Harries does this. They use lighter metal than, say, Jim Riser, so their jumbo traditional cups will cost considerably less than the ones Riser makes, which weigh about twice as much, by the way.

However, no matter how much technology you put into a set of cups, to get a fine set of cups, you have to pay for hand work, such as polishing.

A lot of "economic experts" have posed the same question you have, stating that with the increase in the cost of raw copper, a set of cups that sold for $ 25.00 five years ago should cost no more than $ 100 now. But they forget about all the other costs that are associated with actually making a cup.

Manufacturers buy metal by the sheet. If they paid $90 for it five years ago, now they are paying close to $700 for the same sheet. That's a sheet of .050" high grade copper, 3 feet by 4 feet.

When you add in the cost of tne energy that is used, the workmen, the tooling -- it costs about $10K to get a good metal spinning block made to spin a cup -- then you realize that a set of cups for $300 is not such a bad price.

Even machine made items cost more these days. Look what an automobile costs, compared to five years ago.

If you have to ask, though, two things:
1) You can't afford them.
2) You don't need them.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
mysto59
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I can't afford to buys cups all of the time so I just save my money until I can afford to get a quality set of cups. Are they worth the money? Well, they are to me.

Bill, I wanted you to know that my wife has "taken over" my Cups and Balls Museum Commemorative Cup Set. She has the set along with your photo all arranged very nicely on a shelf and won't let me "play" with it. I tell her I want to practice with them and she informs me that I have another set coming in the mail, (Blue Gun Steel Mini Monti Cups from RnT II) and that I can practice with them when they get here. (sigh)
It's not the size of the wand that matters, it's the "magic" in it...
kentfgunn
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Merritt Island FL
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I had a prospective bride leave me because I spent a nearly couple grand on a set of cups. She had not earned the money I spent. She simply couldn't understand how four (yes I meant 4) little lumps of silver could give me two thousand dollars worth of enjoyment.

Partially because she left and partially because I'm insane I came up with this this routine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fNO3obSA7M

Dear God I'm glad she left me. I'd rather have this routine to perform than that woman in my life.
mysto59
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Actually I am VERY fortunate to have a wife that enjoys magic as much as I do and dosen't mind if I spend a little money on it every now and then. I showed her a video of Outsmokin the other day and she laughed so hard she was in tears. Then she told me to order it. (Smile) And she can cook too!!!

Great routine by the way. Very creative!
It's not the size of the wand that matters, it's the "magic" in it...
amerigo
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Great routine Kent
You had me fooled
Magic is Everywhere
Bill Palmer
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Quote:
On 2008-08-26 19:57, mysto59 wrote:
I can't afford to buys cups all of the time so I just save my money until I can afford to get a quality set of cups. Are they worth the money? Well, they are to me.

Bill, I wanted you to know that my wife has "taken over" my Cups and Balls Museum Commemorative Cup Set. She has the set along with your photo all arranged very nicely on a shelf and won't let me "play" with it. I tell her I want to practice with them and she informs me that I have another set coming in the mail, (Blue Gun Steel Mini Monti Cups from RnT II) and that I can practice with them when they get here. (sigh)


The time to worry is when she starts burning candles next to them. Smile
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
deadcatbounce
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Bill Palmer,

Thank you for taking the time to explain...However, I disagree with your statement - "If you have to ask, you either don't need them, or you can't afford them"
I
You could apply that same response to the question.. "How come every time oil goes up a few cents, it goes up instantly at the pumps.." or any one of a thousand questions relating to the fine art of price gouging.

My question really had two issues. The actual cost of manufacturing a set of cups, which you've explained adequately, and thanks again for that.

And, would they improve your performance significantly? I doubt that very much.
I'd be so bold as to suggest that the value and enjoyment comes in owning the items.
I'm useless at playing the guitar, but I have two very expensive vintage guitars which are as much works of art as they are practical items. They've given me years of enjoyment so far, and will continue to give me years to come, hopefully.
Yes, I could play the same tunes on a crappy $20 guitar, and 95% of people would never know the difference.
You get my point?
I find the art of street performing at odds with lugging around a set of very expensive cups...

DCB
"With every mistake - we must surely be learning..." George Harrison.
pepka
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There are many people who have done great performances with coffee cups, or dixie cups. You did make a great analogy, it is so much like playing an instrument. But you admit that you're not much of a guitar player. For someone who is an accomplished player, they would notice the differences in the quality of instrument. I play jazz trombone. For me there is no substitute for my 1957 King 2B. While I have not been performing the cups nearly as long as I have trombone, I decided to take the plunge and buy a set of silver Sherwoods. I had just started doing a lot of high end cocktail parties and thought these would be perfect. After 3 years, I liked the feel and design so much, I bought a copper set for informal situations. I can't speak for others, who may collect and use dozens of different sets, but I just became used to the way that design feels in my hand.
Mad Jake
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Quote:
On 2008-08-27 04:47, deadcatbounce wrote:

I find the art of street performing at odds with lugging around a set of very expensive cups...

DCB


I think Bill hit the nail on the head here perfectly. No one knows what it costs to produce a set of balanced working cups, wether they be RNT II, Sherwood, Riser, Johnson etc.

There are a lot of moves that can NOT be peformed with inferior made cups, this is not opinion, it's fact and I know most who do the C&B professionally know the moves I'm referring to. So you are incorrect in assuming that better cups will give a better performance. Book a show at a country club and bring in cheap line props, I'm sure you won't be asked back next time. If you do this for a living, the props you use are more than just props, they are your tools!

Quite frankly, for the most part the orignal PF/DD cups were inferior to todays spinning. Bill knows I went through over a dozen purchases just to get a set where all the cups were a match, uneven cups, uneven mouth beads, bead placement the list goes on, but in the day that didn't matter and a set of copper PF/DD were held in high esteem and cost a whopping 19.99 through Owen/Thayer.

If you think 300+ is a lot for cups, take this into consideration, do you think those who have gone to engineering school just suck up a 100k+ student loan? What about the precision equipment and tools to make the cups. A single set of tooling for a set of cups today will cost you 7K+ depending on the grade steel you have everything made from, copper like Bill mentioned is through the ceiling, then there is transport shipping fees for the metal to be delivered, tailgate fee from the trucking company, then the labor of shearing, cutting the disks, greasing the tooling, the fuel and oxygen tanks for the anealing ovens, 3 phase electricity to run the spinning lathes and polishing lathes, the polishing consumables, the time to polish and all the labor in between,prototyping, equipment upkeep such as 300-700 dollar bearings, insurance costs, OSHA and EPA fees, taxes, bags, balls, packaging the product, shipping costs.

Then there are the big time performers, you get a call and instead of being at Jr's ball game I'm in the shop making a prop to meet a deadline for a film shoot. Or instead when my wife rolls over in bed, I'm not there I'm in the shop polishing a special order. That is time that you can NOT put a tag on because flat out YOU CAN'T AFFORD that time that kind of time that is taken from us, because we can as craftsmen can not buy back that kind of time, ever.

I haven't made this public, but since this thread has again popped up, last Monday we were hit with credit card fraud from France, in the tune of over 14K. Who loses that? We do, have prices gone up? No. We liquidate to recreate cash flow to keep prices where they are at instead of passing it on to the consumer.

A lot of people are under the impression we all live in these huge houses, have a car for each day of the week and laughing all the way to the bank. Taint so. Most of us who do this, do this because we have a love for the art of magic and design.

Yeah, 300 bux is a lot for a set of cups for someone that only bills out at 50.00 a show.

When I go into a retailer to purchase shop machinery, I don't ask how much I tell them what I need and it has to be precision equipment, don't tell me the price until you need the $ at load up. If I have to ask how much then I agree with Bill, I either can't afford it or I don't need it, but I have yet to be in that situation as my tools are my life, that's what I make my living with. I must have done something right along the way as we are constantly in backlog with orders. Being able to supply precision tools to peformers requires precision machinery, anything less would be a hack job.

Bill, "Am I right or am I right?" <wink>
For quality Paul Fox Cups spun on Danny Dew's Paul Fox tooling visit us at www.airshipmagic.com
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