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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » Owen 100 Anniversary Copper Cups (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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deadcatbounce
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Mad Jake,

Thank you for your input. The fact that you have a backlog does not necessarily mean you're doing something right. There was a company in the UK, made hand built cars, always had a backlog. The salesman wasn't a salesman. He was an order taker.
They went bust, I believe, because they were incredibly inefficient, and refused to move with the times, insisting that "hand made means just that - we don't use power saws for shaping sheet metal here, oh no..." The cars they made (Morgan) were so much in demand, that they could have, and should have upped the price and increased the efficiency. But.. up till the day they closed, they were proud of the fact they had a backlog.
As for "If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it".. I just don't buy that for one minute.
Almost all my adult life, I've been in the business of trading - buying and selling - whatever took my fancy. Buying at an economical price is the first step to a successful business. At one point, I was a buyer for a small (14 employees) electronics company. I could buy the same devices at a better price than the vast corporation down the road - because their buyers were too busy being wooed by suppliers with hospitality perks to care about pressing for better prices.
No-one in their right mind, in my opinion, should order anything without first having an idea of the eventual cost. To order blind is just not good business.

All you say about your material costs, I have no argument with.

But - I'm guessing the same items could be made in Asia for a LOT less. And if the demand was there, I'm sure it would be met. Let's face it - all the majors have their products manufactured in Asia, simply because it's more bucks for them at the end of the day.

As for not getting a return booking at a country club because of cheap props - well - I don't know how much people who frequent country clubs know about the different qualities of hand produced copper or stainless steel cups, but I'm pretty certain the vast majority of the patrons wouldn't know a $2,000 set from a $300 set. And if the performer was using a $30 set, I seriously doubt that the booker would take him to one side and say... "Hey.. the act was good, but these cheapo cups.. well.. sorry bud, you're not coming back here...take a hike.. etc.."

On a different level, I always use Goshman sponge balls, because they're the best. If the others were a tenth of the price, I would still use Goshman. Not once, has anyone ever congratulated me on my choice of Goshman balls. Because they have no idea about the properties of the different sponge balls out there....

I'm not being obstructive or argumentative here, although it has been said that I can be a bit..confrontational... just getting my point across. Sometimes people can be just a little bit too precious about their "art."

Regards,

DCB
"With every mistake - we must surely be learning..." George Harrison.
silverking
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Quote:
On 2008-08-27 10:38, deadcatbounce wrote:

I'm not being obstructive or argumentative here............

Could have fooled most readers with that statement.
Chessmann
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Quote:
On 2008-08-27 10:48, silverking wrote:
Quote:
On 2008-08-27 10:38, deadcatbounce wrote:

I'm not being obstructive or argumentative here............

Could have fooled most readers with that statement.


Not at all, I believe. His questions and points are ones that many people (who do not know a great deal about the cup-making process) would naturally have, it seems to me. He has a different opinion on some matters, but that is nothing new for the Café.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Mad Jake
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This guy is a piece of work. He's going to compare autos to cups and Goshman sponge balls to cups. Buying and selling no matter how long gives you no insight to actual operations costs. You know nothing about this based on your remarks and rebuttals.

It's quite obvious as well you have never performed at the AC Country club, I've had the pleasure of entertaining people like the Gotti family, Hughe Heffner, and other celebs. The average country club member there would notice say little things about the Shoe Shoe 19.99 shoes you were wearing, please don't debate professional atmosphere and clientele consideration of what they perceive in a performer, they notice a lot more than you think.

The only point that you are getting across is asserting that cup makers and quality prop makers are gouging, as you put it. Based on CAD analysis of a job to run a set of Traditional cups, based on material costs, and all other factors computed, we should be charging 1765.18 per set of 3, that's industry standard profit margin for machine shop. Looks like we're all selling ourselves cheap.

Joe Porper uses state of the art CNC machinery, the machine, oh, runs a bit shy of 850k, the slab that is required to mount this beast on is another 75-100K just for a cement reinforced foundation. Guess what that's all figured into cost.

I perform at a country club that uses 925 silverware and tea ware, my cups for the bookings each year is cost me 1250.00, they are Sherwood engraved. Christ man I make cups for a living and still am wise enough to know what suits my clientele.

No all majors do not have their props made in Asia, 3 of the largest cutsom producers in the US, Porper, Owen and RNT II all do their own work, we don't farm out to Asian, especially communist China where lead is still a growing problem.

In a simple assumption based on weak debating, you sound like you are so cheap you could squeeze a booger out of Lincoln's Nose on a penny.

Don't' come to a gun fight with a knife, until you can produce actual production records and costs of US Quality magic manufacturers your arguments and points are moot.

As far as the backorder issue, people are willing to wait and the backorder situation with me is no secret, it's on the site and posted all over the Café. Lynn Johnson of Milson Worth has been working on a die box for over 9 months for me, go ahead and try to tell me Lynn will fail. LOL.

I'm not using this debate to say RNT II is the answer, but we are part of it. Jim Riser is a rip *** machinist, while most know we are competing machinists, I have never been quoted of belittling his awesome engineering skills. He is one of the top spinners in our little niche in the market.

Go to a spinner, a commercial one that spins parts for NASA, these morons can't even make a set of cups that stack correctly. Not only do you get the best craftsmanship from those in the magic community, the props have years of research into them. The Mendoza cups took 4 years by RNT II, they were hailed to date as the best combo set ever in magic according to a quote from John Mendoza.

Buying at a "economical price" is not the key to good business, what we give the stuff away more than we are now? That's inane. Economical means you'll be replacing it over and over or having it fixed. Your fixated buysing trading and selling is a poor example as it still shows you have no idea what it costs to run a US based manufacturing company on a small scale. If you don't want to pay the price, do like others, buy cheap crap and replace it over and over. I can highly recommend one magic company of props that would meet your expectations, call Rob Stiff at Magic Makers, tell em' Jake sent ya.

Your remarks/opinions crossed you over a gray line into the art of manufacturing in the US that you know nothing about. Basically, all you have shown by your opinions that you are not thrifty but cheap, and will sell out a U.S. manufacturer to an Asian company just to pinch your pocket, this really sends the message of A. You're too cheap or B. You can't afford it.

Those again who take the pride in their work, don't ask questions in regard to price, we expect the best and we pay it. I don't ask for something from my machine suppliers unless I need it, so again Bill's statement holds true. Quality, precision and proper equipment (the best) is worth a machinist investment, especially if you take the service contract. Down time is minimal.

You seem to have skipped the part where justification of costs of running a small custom manufacturing business, if you say that doesn't figure in, then Royal Cups and Balls are just your style.
For quality Paul Fox Cups spun on Danny Dew's Paul Fox tooling visit us at www.airshipmagic.com
deadcatbounce
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When I was talking about the "majors", I wasn't referring to the likes of Joe Porper and the others in the magic business you mention. I was talking about Walmart, Gap, etc. I was talking about the economics of world trading.

However, I can see I'm up against guys who know much more about the business of making cups. Which isn't difficult, as I know nothing. Which is why I posed the question originally.

Country Club clearly has a different meaning in the U.S. than it does elsewhere...

Running a business in the U.S. is fundamentally the same as running a business elsewhere in the world. In fact, I learned a lot about "service" from businesses in the US, set up my own very successful business in the UK, and operated it for 25 years.

I'm not American, of course, so what on earth would I know about anything? Even worse than that, I don't even know who the Gotti family are! Can you believe that?
I've never even heard of the Gotti family. But then... maybe it's because I still ain't American.
Another thing - in my (somewhat limited, ahem) experience, performing for celebs is no different from performing for the "man in the street" (bit of a euphemism there..), and why should it be??? If you're into sucking up to celebs because they're celebs, good luck to you.

Seems to me I'm wasting your time, and more importantly, wasting my own time. Cups? What do I care? I don't even intend performing the C&B!.. Just asked a question.
Now, if you don't mind, I'm finished with this topic. Next time, I'll just keep my trap shut, how about that?

All the best, you cups guys...

DCB
"With every mistake - we must surely be learning..." George Harrison.
Pete Biro
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Bill and Jake have said it all. Some of you know that I marketed the Johnny Paul and Galli Galli cups. Why don't I have more to sell (well there are a few of the JP's left in stock)??? I can't afford the start up to make another run. Of those I did have made, I barely recovered the cost to make the jigs for the first cup of each type.

No, I am not a spinner, but through research and luck... I found the company that could do the job at the quality necessary. They primarily make parts for space and aircraft contractors and only because the owner loves magic was I able to get them to make such a piddling, insignificant run. He told me, "We don't make any money on your stuff, but we love magic."
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
Tom Bartlett
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There are people who will grab a rock to drive a nail in a piece of wood instead of using a fine well balanced hammer. Most likely, the person that uses the rock could care less what the finished product looks like or how long it last, as long as it does the job at the time.

There are others that take a great deal of pride, not only in their work, but also in the work of others. The ones that appreciate top quality, finely crafted items of all kinds, expect no less from them selves, applaud success of others, endeavor to succeed in all that they do and do it with a lot of style, their own!

The audience may not know how valuable your props are, but the audience will experience the results.
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
Mad Jake
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Just recieved a quote from my vendor for a 3"x3"x12" of machinable 110 copper for CNC work, 956.00 per foot, that piece will yield 9 mini Foxy cups at 2" each, making just the raw material cost over 100.00+ per cup.
For quality Paul Fox Cups spun on Danny Dew's Paul Fox tooling visit us at www.airshipmagic.com
Pete Biro
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I am soon coming out with a revision of an ancient trick, using COPPER... and am trying to figure out what the costs will be. HOLDING MY BREATH (AND WALLET).
STAY TOONED... @ www.pete-biro.com
Bill Palmer
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To be argumentative, and I will admit that's exactly what I'm doing, I know as much about manufacturing of vintage musical instruments, such as guitars and banjos, as anyone on this forum -- probably more, because my family was in the music business, and I grew up in an era when people who worked at music stores were more than order takers.

By a quirk of fate, I also recently became a part owner of an oil lease. The day I signed the papers for the lease and sent them off, the price of oil dropped $15 a barrel. Smile

So, let's address a couple of things here.

1) a country club. These are places that have private memberships that charge large fees so the riff-raff can't go into them. They also pay large fees for their entertainment. Many "country clubs" are not in "the country." The closest equivalent I know of in the UK would be an exclusive London "gentlemen's club," except for the fact that you can bring your whole family into the country club.

2) Most people in the UK know who the Gotti family are. John Gotti was the Mafia don called "The Teflon Don," until the FBI trapped him and finally convicted him.

3) You are right about entertaining celebrities, if you are good. If you aren't good, you will suffer greatly if you get them angry at you. I worked for the oil barons and medical machers in Houston, as well as for entertainment elite when they gave parties in Houston. When I retired, I retired on top. And that's the way it should be.

4) China -- a name to conjure with. There have been two notable companies who had metal cups made in China. You could almost spot them across the room. The quality was very low, even though they had their "best" metal spinners working on it. The metal was inferior, the cups were not annealed properly, they came to the retailers polished on the outside (in some cases) and grubby on the inside. I sold several sets of these before I gave up. I spent roughly 30 minutes cleaning each set before sending them off.

Machining in China for the kind of stuff we do has a long way to go yet. If you purchase any of the brass items from China, you find that their tolerances are so low that tricks will not function properly. This is not good. It hurts young magicians who are trying to save a buck, and it hurts the dealers who have to take the returns. "You are paying for the secret" won't hold up forever.

A very rare exception to the horrid merchandise from PRC (People's Republic of China) are the Recording King musical instruments. I know the fellows who set their factory up for them -- two Americans, by the way, that's where the best banjos and steel string acoustical guitars are built -- Greg Rich and Scott Zimmermann spent TWO YEARS teaching the woodworkers and metalworkers how to cut the parts, how to lay frets, how to do the finishes, etc., and they actually produce a very nice instrument for about a third of the retail price of the originals.

But here's the rub.

The kind of music that is played on these instruments is uniquely American. And the audiences for it are extremely patriotic. Patriotic to the point that if they see that a band is using nothing but Chinese instruments, that band loses its credibility for them, and they reject their work. It's ignorant, but it's true.

And they still don't know all the ins and outs of setting up the instruments, anyway. They come close, but they aren't perfect. It took me a good 40 years to learn what I know about setup, and I still don't know it all. But I know where to look for the information I need.

There is an interesting phenomenon that has happened across the music world and the magic world that has affected prices on vintage items and reproductions thereof. It's the baby boomers. The ones who were active musically during the Great Folk Music Scare of the 1960's and the ones who were budding, fumble-fingered young magicians who couldn't afford P&L, Ross Bertram or Paul Fox props are now nearing retirement age. Many of them are doctors, lawyers, and other kinds of professionals. They have money. And they now can afford to purchase that D-28 or that set of genuine Paul Fox cups that they always wanted. But there is a limited supply of these things. So the prices have gone up...WAY up.

Why does a vintage D-28 cost $35,000 or more? It's partially because of the sound. But there are two other factors. One is that there are more people that want them than there are guitars for. All it takes is two people at an auction to drive the price up significantly.

Why does a set of original Paul Fox cups go for $500 to $2000? Look at the literature. Frank Garcia recommended them in his book on the cups and balls. So did many other performers. So, the doctors and lawyers and real estate barons who want them will pay whatever it takes to get them. There is fierce competition for a set of those cups. And, by the way, they do feel different in the hands than a set of clunkers from one of the producers overseas. In fact, the ONLY set of cups that I know of that was made in the UK at that time that handled as well as a set of Paul Fox cups were the Harry Stanley cups. They also command a premium. In some ways, they are a better cup. Now, Brett Sherwood has designed a cup that is made in the UK that is better than the Stanley cups. Many of us feel that his cups are the best. They range in price from about $350 a set to about $1500 a set. His spinner recently raised his prices, so there won't be any more of them for a while.

Fortunately, there are people like Jake Zimmerman who have made it a goal to be able to reissue the older cups that people want in a high quality reissue that will not be confused with the originals, but that handle just as nicely.

The standard for street cups was the Paul Fox chick cup. Every street performer had to have a set of these. Busby produced several sets of these which sold for around $85. This was more than twice what Danny Dew got for them. But the demand from Renaissance Festival performers in the States drove the price up. A counterfiet set went for about $650 at the Jay Marshall auction last month. If they had been genuine, they would have brought about 5 times that much.

And that's the other part of the equasion -- collectibility. Your vintage instruments are also affected by the fact that collectors want them.

There are many economic factors involved in the price of everything, especially oil. Just to give you an example, you Brits should have done what we did in Boston a couple of centuries ago, and stood up to your government. The bulk of what you pay for your gasoline is tax. You pay an environmental tax, and you pay an import tax. Your crude oil is pumped out of the North Sea field by concerns from Aberdeen. It is processed in Milton Keynes at the BP refinery. By these standards, it's NOT imported. But you pay an import tax on it, anyway.

The main reason there was such a price drop a couple of weeks ago, is that Americans won't take that kind of @#$^ from the manufacturers or the government. We told the oil companies we would sit at home and watch TV instead of going to Disney World. Their sales dropped, and so did the price of oil.

Personally, when it comes to cups, I could perform with almost anything. But I don't choose to, because I have an image to maintain. That image is one YOU have never seen. Only a few on this forum have ever seen me perform in public. But where other guys were using sharpies and bics to do the pen through bill, I used a genuine Mont Blanc. My clients noticed.

And they also notice when I perform my version of Scotch and Soda, with a genuine 1891 $20 gold piece, an 1897 Barber half and an 1895 English penny.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
Mr. Mystoffelees
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Ain't it grand to have choices?

Pick what you want, and let the other fellow do the same. I got cheap cups, and I got good cups. Skill-wise, I only deserve to have cheap cups, but I flat out love my RNT Monti's, even though I can't bring myself to actually "use" them.

For me, it's great to be able to buy "cheap" cups and beat them to death on the street, but the folks who are making the good cups we have today deserve every penny and more, you just have to take those beauties in your hands to know how special they are.

I say "thanks" for the opportunity to have those good cups!

Guess I'm not doing a very good job of convincing RevJohn of lowering the price on those Owens...

Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
RevJohn
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Quote:
On 2008-08-27 14:28, mandarin wrote:
I'm not doing a very good job of convincing RevJohn of lowering the price on those Owens...

Jim


That was funny! Smile
Bill Palmer
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John:

Keep those cups as long as you can.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
RevJohn
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Thanks Bill, I will plan on doing that.

John
fortasse
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Everything Owen makes is tip-top quality. Their cups are no exception.

Fortasse
plungerman
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I've enjoyed all the discussion. My hat goes off to (where did it go?) to Mr. Jake for his tipping the gaff of the life of a manufacturer with his heart in it. We all thank you, even if, and espescially, if we Can't afford your work. To enjoy a prop so much is, I think, unique to magicians.

My favorite explanation for my (modest) collection of cups, as well as the numerous other collections underfoot is still the classic.
"They pay for themselves."

P
Lawrence O
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Quote:
On 2008-08-26 18:23, deadcatbounce wrote:
Hi,...

Can anyone explain to me why 3 cups, no matter what the material is, should command $300 and upwards? I don't do the cups and balls, but I do have a set of aluminium cups I bought years ago... Now, ok.. they wouldn't take the beating that copper ones would, but even so... the price seems excessive...
Just what is the gauge of metal these are made from, and what makes them so expensive, with the technology of today?

Cheers!

DCB


To answer your question there are several reasons:
One of the main one is the weight and the sound of these cups.
When the weight is not enough haven't you notice that large loads often push the cups aside, as if the cup was animated, instantly betraying your otherwise perfect large loading (I've seen this problem with the performance of incredibly good performers)
The sound also expresses that the cups are solid: no need to have them examined. You gain in performance rhythm.
Now about the price: I'm looking at your photograph and it is obvious that by looking to your aspect, you are prepared to pay the right price for the right things (sorry a bad habit of cold readers). My point here is that, after a few years we all (every single one of us) spent more on tricks which we don't perform than the price of these cups.
If you do the cups: even 600$ for turned steel, copper or silver and engraving turns out not to be that expensive. Aren't you prepared to pay more for one single so called "large illusion" which will become obsolete way before your cups and will get you much less mileage in much fewer situations.
Think about it. Physically find out what great cups are. Get the feel. Borrow some from friends who have them, and do your routine with such cups.
Believe me! Ultimately they are not expensive, and I don't sell mine which I have for more than 30 years and they look like new... but if you are prepared to make an effort ... (just joking, I don't sell them because I spent even more having the etchings of Ozanam's book reproduced and engraved near their mouth between the two lips).
I'm sure you got my point. If you may want your routine to be remarkable, you could feel good in having remarkable cups, some that no one else or very few have anything comparable.

Why should you buy such cups: because you are unique!
Magic is the art of proving impossible things in parallel dimensions that can't be reached
deadcatbounce
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I said I wasn't going to give this topic any more oxygen, as my question seemed to have raised a few hackles....

However, Lawrence, since you've pointed out that I'm prepared to pay the right price for the right items, I'll respond.

I asked the question, and my questions were answered.

Indeed, I have no problem paying for quality items, and do so regularly. But I will always make sure that the product is worth the money - to me. It may not be worth the money to the next man, but I really don't care what the next man thinks, in that respect. I drive an Orvis Jeep - it's 10 years old, but it's a wonderfully luxurious vehicle. I also drive a Saab convertible - it's about 12 years old - but I thoroughly enjoy driving it. I also drive a 1989 VW camper van, and I just adore driving it, sleeping in it, and generally using it. Of course, I can only drive one vehicle at a time (I have 4), but having the choice is wonderful.

As Mandarin pointed out "Ain't it great to have choices?"

No doubt, if I was to take up the cups and balls, I'd have what I considered to be the best cups and the best balls.
Oh... and I wear a High Caliber holster when performing close-up. Expensive - but it does a great job. I figure it'll last me the rest of my days...hopefully, hundreds of performances... so... it's great deal.

So... as far as whoever it was reckoned I was a cheapskate... he's way wrong.

"If you have to ask the price, you either can't afford it, or you don't need it..."

Poppycock!

Incidentally, for my sound system, I use an Anchor Liberty...certainly not the cheapest out there by any means...took me about 2 months to research and question all the various options, but I got what I wanted, and if I hadn't asked for a discount, I'd have paid substantially more.


All the best to you all...


DCB
"With every mistake - we must surely be learning..." George Harrison.
magicone
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Quote:
On 2008-08-26 20:03, kentfgunn wrote:
I had a prospective bride leave me because I spent a nearly couple grand on a set of cups. She had not earned the money I spent. She simply couldn't understand how four (yes I meant 4) little lumps of silver could give me two thousand dollars worth of enjoyment.

Partially because she left and partially because I'm insane I came up with this this routine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fNO3obSA7M

Dear God I'm glad she left me. I'd rather have this routine to perform than that woman in my life.


Kent that was SWEET! nice routine, and smart move Smile
deadcatbounce
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Just when you thought I'd gone off and busied myself with a new (Goshman) sponge ball routine, I think it's only fair that I keep you all up to date.
I think the C&B is a great routine, but I happened across several characters in Covent Garden and Edinburgh who were all doing the same *king routine, which, I've been informed, is known as the Gazzo routine. Same patter, same moves, same old, same old.
But then! I saw one guy in Edinburgh, do a different routine. One I've never seen before...I admit, it's not been top of my list of "things to see"... but, I was entertained, I was amused, and I thought.. "Now.. that IS good!"
Then I got involved in this "how come these things are so expensive debate.. "
I was called called Cheapskate, Billy Nofreinds, a Piece of Work, and so on. Nothing new there, of course...but. my questions were indeed answered.

Now, I've sourced a set of Galli Galli cups, Pete..and I'll be looking into the different routines..
Like most magi, I imagine, over the years, I've played around with the C&B, the Chop Cup, but never given it the attention it needs, mainly because I didn't really have a place to perform it. Up till recently I've stuck to restaurants and wedding receptions, and a few privates.
Early this year, however, I thought it was time to try my hand on the street. Starting now, I'm giving myself till the spring next year to get my act together.

I've recently started doing kids shows, and that's really what gave me the idea. Not saying they're the same thing, but there are a lot of similar things going on there. I'd say that kid shows make a reasonable stepping stone, when moving from close-up stuff.

So, I'm on the hunt now for a routine to suit my (inimitable) style!

Thanks for all your help.... and patience!

Regards,

DCB
"With every mistake - we must surely be learning..." George Harrison.
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