|
|
Go to page 1~2~3~4 [Next] | ||||||||||
Orville Smith New user 87 Posts |
Another Christian told me that when he tried performing Gospel Magic that it backfired because the Non-Christian spectator responded by saying that the miracles in the Bible could be explained as sleight-of-hand legerdemain. For example, the spectator said that Christ walking on water could have been done by the use of a Net hidden below the surface of the water. And as for Christ turning Water into Wine, that transformation is a well-known bit of trickery that most stage-illusionists know how to do. So the fact that Gospel-magic uses trickery seems to add to the skepticism that a Non-Christian feels toward the Bible. How do we deal with that backfire?
|
|||||||||
ibm_usa Special user In Your Mind, Ky, USA 722 Posts |
The theory about Christ walking on a net under the water is crazy, mainly due to the fact that Christ was walking on water during the middle of a storm! waves would most certainly break the net. Besides, if Christ used methods known to legerdemain, Luke would have noted that because Luke was very observant and one of the more logical persons who walked with Jesus. Luke describes some interesting medical facts in his Gospel that none of the other Gospels touch apon. If Jesus used trickery, Luke would have seen it and exposed it. Luckly, Jesus did indeed perform supernatural miracles, 2 Peter 1:16 and Luke 1 confirms that.
"You may think that i only talk of things from the past, you know, history, well magic is history"
-Guy Jarrett "Curiosity isn't a sin Harry, but it should be exorcised with great caution." -Albus Dumbledore (Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire) http://www.jordanallen-mentalist.webs.com/ |
|||||||||
Bryan Drake Show Regular user Alabama 125 Posts |
Not to mention that the host, and everyone at the wedding in Cana said that it was the best wine. As we all know any kind of slight method, especially on a grand scale would not be tasty. Also for that matter, to change water into wine, he would have had to anticipate the host running out, and greatly plan ahead which seems silly since Jesus went with his mother, and not on his own accord.
|
|||||||||
stempleton Inner circle 1443 Posts |
I know that skills in magic have come a long way, but even with today's marvels I have yet to see someone restore life to a three-day dead body, let alone with mere words.
|
|||||||||
Amazing Binky Loyal user Lancaster,OH 223 Posts |
Science can show how the sea can be parted if the ground below the water is just so and the wind is blowing just so, so I believe it can be done but to get the Moses at the right spot and the wind to blow at just the right time still takes God's divine working.
|
|||||||||
ClintonMagus Inner circle Southwestern Southeast 3997 Posts |
For one thing, that "well-known bit of trickery" wouldn't make drinkable wine!
Regardless, gospel magicians I have seen use their illusions as ILLUSTRATIONS, not as explanations for MIRACLES. For this reason, I have always believed that gospel magic was more effective with believers than with non-believers.
Things are more like they are today than they've ever been before...
|
|||||||||
Terry Holley Inner circle 1805 Posts |
Illusionist Andre' Kole and I co-authored the book "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena" several years ago. It is still available through Amazon.com and Christianbook.com.
In the preface, Andre' writes about how at that time he carried thousands of pounds in his stage show, and that David Copperfield carried 26,000 pounds of equipment in three diesel trucks along with two buses that carried 30 people in order to perform his illusion show. He follows those facts up by writing the following: "As an illusionist I strongly believe that only if one can imagine Jesus and his disciples walking along the dusty streets of Galilee in their long robes and sandals 2000 years ago with three diesel trucks following along behind, then perhaps Jesus could be accused of using trickery. For this reason alone I believe that it is ridiculous for anyone to even suggest that Jesus performed his miraculous works by trickery." While doing the research, I came across an interesting report of the process to feed the crowd of more than 5,000 by natural means as reported in John 6:1-12. It's in the book "Jesus Online: A Creative Look at a Most Creative Life" by Charles O. Morgan, pp. 60-68. If you can find the info, it's very eye-opening and it appears as if there is no way it could be done other than by supernatural means. Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
|
|||||||||
Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Being your resident non-theist I have to honestly tell you that I doubt that anyone could present a piece of gospel magic that would be even the slightest bit compelling to get a non-believer to abandon their current belief, well actually non-belief system and adopt yours.
A Gospel presentation might push someone teetering towards accepting your faith over to your side or perhaps even keep someone thinking of straying back in the fold. But your average non-believer isn't going to be swayed into belief just because you've turned that little red hanky of sin white as the driven snow. Face it, we've all heard the pitch many times before and until you can present some new persuasive arguments or find any compelling evidence to back up your claims we are simply going to continue on merrily in our non-theistic ways. I'm pretty sure the fellow who told your friend that the miracles of the bible could be explained through illusion and sleight of hand was just yanking the poor guys chain. There is a much simpler explanation for all those miracles and you don't need any trickery and truckloads of illusions either.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
|
|||||||||
Bryan Drake Show Regular user Alabama 125 Posts |
I have to agree and disagree with you Payne. First of all I have seen people change their beliefs and accept Christianity at several events, first and foremost would be Brock Gill's Freedom Experience, but as we hae seen over time, it wouldn't matter what Brock, or I, or others do because it's the effect that is at work in the heart of the matter.
|
|||||||||
Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
I would wager that anyone attending a Brock Gill performance who felt compelled to change their beliefs was already well on their way to making a decision to do so and perhaps only just needed a slight nudge in the proper direction.
This is where Gospel presentations might work. But going up to average Joe Blow on the street and trying to convert him with a gospel presentation. I just really can't see having much of a success rate with that.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
|
|||||||||
Marvelous_Mysto Regular user Adelaide, Australia 143 Posts |
Hi Payne,
I agree with you. When I present Gospel magic, it is not intended to convince or convert someone on the spot. In fact, I believe that only God can make that change in a person's life. My tricks are just tricks, however, God can use them as part of the change process. I would never 'mug' someone with a gospel magic trick - I don't think it would have any positive effect. I would rather have a dialogue with someone who was inquiring, than use magic in a didactic way. In my perpsective, God may use many small steps to initiate change in a person. It may be that remembering a gospel magic trick is one of those steps for some people. Regards Baz |
|||||||||
Steve_Mollett Inner circle Eh, so I've made 3006 Posts |
What many seem to forget (or not be aware of), is that tons of equipment is not required to create miracles. All that is needed is the 'wagging of tongues,' aka legend or embellishment in the retelling. One glance at Snopes will show how common this is among humanity. Am I saying that biblical miracles are simply myths or exaggerated accounts by ancient believers? Not necessarily, but such an explanation is perfectly rational in the context of how people write 'history.'
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth. - Albert Camus |
|||||||||
Terry Owens Inner circle Ft. Wayne, Indiana 1707 Posts |
Woops, you get the buzzer Mr. Steve...one of the basic tenants of the Christian faith is the infalibility of the Word of God...God doesn't need to embelish what He's done.
As for salvation, when I present Gospel magic, it is designed to illustrate the truth of the Gospel and the expected result is salvation...and fortunately my expectations are met...this year alone over 300 have come to Christ through our programs. |
|||||||||
ChrisG Elite user Batavia, Ohio 448 Posts |
Many hours of preparation and prayer must go into a Gospel Presentation. As much time should be spent on the message as on the presentation.
Some plant, some water then we all pray that Harvesters like Terry, Brock and many others come along to reap the harvest.
"Consensus is the negation of Leadership"
M. Thatcher |
|||||||||
Terry Owens Inner circle Ft. Wayne, Indiana 1707 Posts |
Amen Chris....
|
|||||||||
Jeff J. Special user Connecticut 787 Posts |
I doubt any of the "major" miracles were done by trickery. If there is a non-superstitious explanation it's probably the most likely one. Time.
I was suspended in high school for flicking a rubber band at a friend of mine, but it missed him and hit the teacher. At my 10 year high school reunion someone came up to me and asked about the time I got suspended for having a gun in school. In 10 years (probably much less) that rubber band turned into a gun. Stories tend to get bigger and better as time goes on. Perhaps in 40 years your grandchildren will ask you if you were there when Chris Angel walked accross the ocean with Great White sharks snapping at his feet, and you have to explain it was really a pool with a few girls in bikinis. |
|||||||||
Mark005 Loyal user 212 Posts |
Ummm... hey guys.
People here here, especially me, get a bit upset when you refer to my faith as "superstition" or "fairy tales", or terms of that nature. If you do not believe, that is up to you, but I don't think this is the place for that debate. After all, what does it have to do with Gospel Magic? To that end, I find the story that begins this thread, more than a bit suspect. From the use of the term "backfiring" which seems an odd choice of words; To the concept that if every ear that hears the good news does not "convert" we have "failed." I reject the premise... |
|||||||||
Terry Holley Inner circle 1805 Posts |
For our non-theist friend Payne, I simply share that if any one comes to believe in Christ it is through the work of the Holy Spirit in that person's life, not the trick that "swayed [them] into belief."
The simplest explanation of the miracles is to accept the Jewish keader Nicodemus' eye witness statement in John 3:3: "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him." Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
|
|||||||||
Terry Holley Inner circle 1805 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-08-27 10:24, Jeff the Unamazing Hack wrote: Your final paragraph is the key to understanding the truth behind the miracles of Christ, particularly his resurrection. Many Bible scholars say there is no good reason to believe that any of the Gospels was written later than A.D 70. For a legend about Christ, in the form of the Gospels, to gain the circulation and have the impact it has had, without any shred of basis in fact, is more than incredible. IMHO, to believe that requires greater faith than to believe the stories are true. For this to have happened would be akin to someone writing a biography on the late President John F. Kennedy and in it state that Kennedy claimed to forgive people's sin, feed 5,000 men with five small loaves of bread and two small fish, and to have risen from the dead. That story is so extreme that it would never get off the ground because there are too many people around who knew President Kennedy (May 29, 1917 – November 22, 1963). This is the same point you bring up about Criss Angel's exploits and why I say this is the key to understanding the truth about Christ's miracles. The Gospel records appeared within 45 years of the death and resurrection of Christ and we are now living near the 45th anniversary of President Kennedy's assassination. The idea that the accounts of Jesus' miracles are legends really doesn't hold water in light of the facts surrrounding them. Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
|
|||||||||
Terry Owens Inner circle Ft. Wayne, Indiana 1707 Posts |
Good insight Terry....
If I convince someone to come to Christ, it's likely that not much happened, but when the Holy Spirit draws men to Christ, that's a real experience. It's not convincing anyone, it's my sharing God's Word and the Holy Spirit taking it from there. |
|||||||||
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Good News! » » Gospel Magic Backfiring » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
Go to page 1~2~3~4 [Next] |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.04 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |