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Steve_Mollett Inner circle Eh, so I've made 3006 Posts |
Look how many people believe in, and tout, people like Uri Geller.
Very little time actually has to pass. Belief writes its own history in short order. But...I won't bother you anymore. Carry on.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth. - Albert Camus |
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Terry Holley Inner circle 1805 Posts |
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On 2008-08-27 18:17, Steve_Mollett wrote: Not a bother - but comparing bending a spoon with walking on water or raising someone from the dead? Geller's so-called paranomal feats are nowhere near the magnitude of the miracles of Christ. As reported in the historical accounts, Christ's detractors didn't question his ability, only who empowered him. Geller's detractors have questioned his ability from the get go. Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
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Ed_Millis Inner circle Yuma, AZ 2292 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-08-27 10:43, Mark005 wrote: As one who until fairly recently totally believe those premises, I now whole-heartedly agree with you, Mark! "Except God builds the house . . . " Quote:
On 2008-08-27 10:43, Mark005 wrote: Welcome to the big, broad realm of "Gospel Magic"!! There are all kinds of Christians in here - from the "hard-liners" to the "more flexible" ones. And then there is Payne, who has about as much chance of convincing us we are wrong as a gospel sponge ball routine has of changing his heart. Yet he keeps hanging around . . . kind of like a secret desire he hopes no one sees? We're on to you, Payne!! 8>) Ed |
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Steve_Mollett Inner circle Eh, so I've made 3006 Posts |
"Not a bother - but comparing bending a spoon with walking on water or raising someone from the dead? Geller's so-called paranomal feats are nowhere near the magnitude of the miracles of Christ."
Unless you include things like Dr. Puharich's account of being in the desert with Uri; seeing a UFO land; seeing the Egyptian god, Horus, step out; and seeing Uri accompany Horus into the UFO. "As reported in the historical accounts, Christ's detractors didn't question his ability, only who empowered him. Geller's detractors have questioned his ability from the get go." I doubt there were very many scientific debunkers in Israel back at that time. His loudest detractors were the Pharisees. Geller's primary detractors have been magicians, notably humanist James Randi. Big difference in perspective. Oh well.
Author of: GARROTE ESCAPES
The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth. - Albert Camus |
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uncleperry New user 97 Posts |
For you guys who don't REALLY believe. Do the church a favor and give up Gospel magic until you do. There are plenty of venues in which to practice your skills.
Once you are ready to accept the infallibility of God's word, He will truly use your craft, but not until. You must embrace the basic tenet: God's word will not return to Him void. Believe it! 'unc.
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and that's usually good enough to make a decent living.
'unc. |
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rossmacrae Inner circle Arlington, Virginia 2475 Posts |
This discussion hinges on two issues:
"Miracles: conjuring or supernatural?" and "Gospel magic: useful or wrongheaded? Resolving each of these issues depends more on the spectator than on the magician. The first issue, whether miracles were (or could have been) done by trickery, is really an issue of trying to dissect an element of faith. Very much like the constantly-asked question "why did God tell Jews not to eat pork, maybe it had to do with food safety?", it's THE WRONG QUESTION. It's very much like the people (and TV shows and books) that try to find historical reasons why the Red Sea parted (miracles, in their opinion, not allowed). As long as you insist on a practical proof, you can never focus on the faith issue, the faith-based example, the spiritual lesson, each of these miracle stories is meant to teach. As long as you even pose the question, you cut yourself off from learning. The second issue, whether presenting Gospel magic points way too strongly toward asking the wrong question (the one just above), is why I was quite uncomfortable with the thread-title "If Jesus Did Card Tricks." I think that well-presented Gospel magic can be a useful tool in evangelism or in teaching, but unfortunately it leaves a big old temptation for some people to say "yeah, it's all just sleight of hand including the stuff Jesus did." The bottom line of course, is "you just can't get through to some people." That shouldn't make you stop doing Gospel magic, but you ought to be ready to field exactly these objections, and I think it might be best not to try to answer in language the questioners simply cannot hear - if you accept their premise, you've already lost the argument. |
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Heres Tony Loyal user Orlando 259 Posts |
Great post rossmacrae. The idea of the "faith" issue goes along with what the two Terry's said; Terry Holley's statement about comparing Christ with Kennedy and Terry Owens statement about the Holy Spirit changing hearts:
The eye-witnesses' where there and back the Gospel up yet it is still not enough for some people. If tomorrow on CNN a breakthrough is reported on new information that Jesus Christ really did rise from the grave, it will not matter to them. If Larry King does a special on new information that determined that Moses did have a direct link to God, it will not matter to them. You can be slapped in the face with "proof", yet no amount of "proof" will be enough until you have a "change of heart". A change of heart is an emotional/spiritual change, not a physical, outwardly visible change and cannot be brought about by natural means such as "well my buddy Jerry said it was okay to worship baal and a few cows". BTW, a "change of heart" can't be measured in a hospital with an EEG. My doctor can't see it with an X-ray. It won't show up on a blood test. Since I can't see that change of heart it must not be REAL then, right?... |
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ClintonMagus Inner circle Southwestern Southeast 3997 Posts |
Back to the original topic, I don't see what happened as gospel magic "backfiring". It doesn't sound like they were on the verge of making a decision and the magician convinced them to decide otherwise.
IMHO, at least...
Things are more like they are today than they've ever been before...
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Terry Owens Inner circle Ft. Wayne, Indiana 1707 Posts |
I'll just add to Clinton's thought...
There are almost always objections that one runs into when "witnessing" and what happened as shared in the original post was a non-believer trying to excuse their believe system and thus coming up with that objection. Terry Holly has done more than most of us here on the Café...I'm extremely honored that he participates in discussions not only here in this forum, but elsewhere on the Café. He is one that should be listened to... |
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bizjak New user 48239 57 Posts |
Man will believe what man will believe. I preface that by saying that man has a free will. A man cannot convince another of something that he has no care to believe. I cannot convince an evolutionist that God created the heavens and the earth if he chooses not to believe in the possibility of the divine. I can try and try and perhaps have compelling arguments but it will not sway his opinion...now this is where the crux of the matter lies...mans heart and mind can be changed by the work of the Holy Spirit. It is my job as a Christian to allow that work to happen. I am responsible for planting the seed...it is the work of the Holy Spirit to change. If a man allows the Holy Spirit to work during a Gospel presentation then that is glorious but if he chooses to listen and reject the urging then that is his will and decision to make. I am no more responsible for that decision then the decision of whether he chooses to wear tennis shoes or loafers. I am merely the vessel to deliver the news I am not responsible for how it is used after I deliver it.
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Ed_Millis Inner circle Yuma, AZ 2292 Posts |
Returning to the original question:
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On 2008-08-26 21:40, Orville_Smith wrote: I do not think there was ANY "backfire"! Some of the physical acts of the OT prophets and of Jesus were to illustrate heavenly truths. That is all our magic is for in a Gospel magic show - illustration. Christians can do magic shows with NO Gospel at all. And (unfortunately in my opinion) some churches will hire a non-Christian magician who will present a show with a "spiritual" message. Especially in the caase of evangelism, we are simply sowing the seeds. Some will fall on good ground, some will fall on hard or thorny ground. No farmer ever put the spark of life in a seed; he simply sows and leaves the results with God. (I can't find the verse right now that speaks of this.) If some seed does not come up, nothing "backfired". The Word of God has life - the soil was not able to release it to life. So I have no response to a non-Christian who wants to use my magic to tear down Christianity. None is needed; they are not responding to the message I was putting out, but to the message that's already in their own heart. Ed |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
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On 2008-08-26 21:40, Orville_Smith wrote: Here's my take on what I've read... It's very likely the spectator had his opinion before the magician engaged them. It's unlikely this theory was fomulated on the spot. However, because the topic was magic and also the gospel, the spectator felt it was appropriate to share their viewpoint. The theory / viewpoint / opinion wasn't a result of seeing gospel magic at that moment. I think that would have been a great opportunity to share about your own viewpoint on miracles vs. magic, because as a magician as you should be more of an expert on that topic. - Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
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On 2008-08-28 14:30, Donald Dunphy wrote: I concur completely. Like I said the guy was more than likely just playing with him for fun. The gospel performer was far game. If you push your opinion on someone unasked it's only fair play to return the favour in kind. If I'm approached by some zealot passing out tracts or asking if I know their deity I simply smile, tell them I'm not superstitious and keep moving forward. It would be a waste of both our times to go any further with the discussion. Especially for them as their arguments are always quite simple to counteract and dismantle
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Terry Holley Inner circle 1805 Posts |
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On 2008-08-28 07:12, Jeff the Unamazing Hack wrote: Hi Jeff: As http://www.cnet.com/Resources/Info/Glossary/Terms/imho.html states: IMHO: in my humble opinion (or in my honest opinion) An acronym often used in email, posting, and chat directly before an opinion that may be honest but is rarely humble. It is a good question, but as Pee-wee Herman told Dottie, "There's a lotta things about me you don't know anything about.... Things you wouldn't understand. Things you couldn't understand. Things you shouldn't understand." Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
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MagicMatthews Regular user Sydney, Australia 174 Posts |
Payne is right. Most of the time, our message falls on deaf ears. People who are not ready to accept God's word as the truth.
However, it is our job just to be faithful to God and to share His good news. Only God can change hearts. You never know, Payne, God could still change yours. You'd better be careful chatting with all these Christians, they may be praying for you.
Don't get even... Get odd!
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
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On 2008-08-28 16:07, MagicMatthews wrote: I'm sure I have been in peoples prayers from time to time over the years. So far though to zero effect. God knows what it would take for me to believe in him and as of yet he has done nothing to show me that there is even the slightest reason for me to believe in him. Really, how hard is it for a supreme being to pick up the phone, send an e-mail or appear in a supernatural manifestation anyway. If he can't take the time to meet me half way I don't really see why I should be bothered Or maybe I'm here just to test your guys faith
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Ed_Millis Inner circle Yuma, AZ 2292 Posts |
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On 2008-08-28 16:47, Payne wrote: Don't know about anyone else - but I think _I've_ got a passing score on this test so far!! Ed |
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Terry Holley Inner circle 1805 Posts |
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On 2008-08-28 16:47, Payne wrote: Well...how about 1) the Bible and 2) Jesus! Terry
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
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stempleton Inner circle 1443 Posts |
I have read this entire post over several times, and it appears to me that most are agreeing that gospel magic is a "means to an end," which models Jesus' M.O. Never did Christ perform a miracle as an end... it was always used to point to the Father. The red herring here is that we get caught up in the miracle. But without first accepting, "by faith alone," that Jesus is the son of God, then the rest is mute. I realize that at least one on this forum will balk at the very concept of "faith." That is when I refer to the scripture, our only direction, which teaches against sharing our pearls with swine (its terminology, not mine.) Yet, we are also directed to be ready to defend our faith. Our commission is not to "convert," as so many notches on a gun, but to share, to witness... many of us do so through the illustration of the gospel through the performing arts, in this case, magic. And let the Holy Spirit do the rest.
I agree with Payne that there are always those who are waiting in the wings to trap us; as were the Pharasees. So, what are we to do? Keep on keeping on. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
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On 2008-08-28 17:13, Terry Holley wrote: 1) The Bible? I looked into it but never found god in it. Maybe he's hiding in a better copy than mine as it's kind of beat up and I think it's missing a couple of pages now. 2) Jesus? He never calls and never writes. I'm assuming he knows where I live so it's really up to him to come and find me as I don't have his current address.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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