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ALEXANDRE
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Bill, I apologize for not answering earlier. "Test conditions" is just something I threw in to annoy the skeptics who post on YouTube. I've done it on a couple of other videos. Great fun. Some skeptics (and I'm a skeptic myself ... an open minded one, I mean ... I don't know everything) always come back with insults, attacks, and finger pointing that it was NOT under "TEST CONDITIONS!" ... well of course not, I'm alone in my home shooting this video and I have everything under my control ... (though I could do it under real test conditions) but some don't get it and are living so deep in their bias and so threatened by anything "paranormal", that any video with a paranormal slant drives them nuts.

Aceofhearts ... thanks, man, I appreciate it. For those of you who don't know this guy's work, please visit: http://stores.lulu.com/thecenterstage

Andy ... see you in England early next year.
Bill Nuvo
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Thanks for the reply Alexandre. I totally agree with you on the point, from one relatively open minded skeptic to another.
chichi711
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Quote:
On 2008-09-01 23:37, Cyberqat wrote:


Great magicians from Houdini to the Amazing Randi


hahaha. Oh man. I have not stopped laughing since I saw this. WOW!! I try not to post here anymore and I really try to stay out of this worthless crap, but the last thing I will do is sit here and let anybody try and compare "the amazing" Randi to Houdini, or any other half decent magician. You have seen clips of this cat right? I mean honest you watched them? Some of the worst magic I have ever seen.
chichi711
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Quote:
On 2008-09-02 17:13, Dannydoyle wrote:
I will come out of my self imposed exile to defend Alexandre. He deserves it.

How DARE you expose him! How childish. I don't care if you are right or if you are wrong, or whatever HOW DARE YOU! On a public forum as well.

I am not offended by mystic claims I am offended by your breach of etiquette! Alexandre is an entertainer and within that context he is presenting some cool stuff. HOW DARE you try to act like a spoiled child who was fooled badly!

I know Alex to be of the HIGHEST moral fiber and chaercter. To denounce him as some sort of charlitan is beyond belief. He claims to be an entertainer and nothing more.

I do not like those who claim spirit knowlege to take money in a fradulant manner. Alexandre does NOT FALL INTO THIS CATAGORY!


I had gotten to the "cats" second exposure post yet. I was even more upset at that piece o crap post than him comparing Randi to Houdini. I would get all mad and say something but Danny already said what needed to be said.

Nice post Danny! Sounds like the both of us are in some kind of self imposed exile.
rannie
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Alexandre,

Good job senor! I too dabble in this kind of entertainment. I have been a long time student of Dr. Jaime Licauco the paranormal expert in ASIA. I have witnessed many things that are just difficult to explain even for magicians but I still remain a skeptic ...but with an open mind. I have had personal experiences myself. You may do a google on Dr. Licauco. Like you I never claimed that my effects are purely paranormal. From the start they already know that I am an entertainer. People pay to watch shows...people pay to get freaked out by horror flicks. I don't believe ALEXANDRE was doing anything other than entertain. If anything other than that...he was making people think. I loved it!

Mabuhay from Manila,

Rannie
"If you can't teach an old dog new tricks, trick the old dog to learn."

-Rannie Raymundo-
aka The Boss
aka The Manila Enforcer

www.rannieraymundo.com
www.tapm.proboards80.net
Oyama
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Just wanted to jump in and show my support for you ALEXANDRE. People have forgotten that we are entertainers.

You should do a video like the "skeptics" want you to perform. That way we can see how "entertaining" it is.

My bet....BORING!

KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK!

Aaron
"it's better to live one day as a lion, than a thousand years as a lamb."
Review King
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Alexandre, beautiful presentation!
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been"

..........John Greenleaf Whittier
Cyberqat
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*shrug*

If he had put the fact that he is a magician in his you tube posting this never would have come up.

I feel no compunction to apologize for attempting to expose a fraudulent medium. Houdini didn't. Randi didn't.

If that's a misunderstanding, well, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding but had he been clearer in his video posting it wouldn't have ever been an issue. It is however clear from the responses to his you tube video that his audience is ALSO confused on this subject. If he were to post and make that much clear to his audience I would be happy to 100% apologize for thinking he intended anything else.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You have seen clips of this cat right? I mean honest you watched them? Some of the worst magic I have ever seen.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Ad hominem attack is one of the 5 standard fallacies of propaganda.

You are quite welcome to your opinions on my video post. In fact, make them constructive and I'd welcome them in that forum.

My skills or lack thereof as a performer however are 100% irrelevant to the issue at hand. This is not a performance contest. I absolutely give Alexandre that he did a nice job presenting his illusion.

This is totally and solely about the ethics of claiming it to be anything *but* an illusion.

As an aside, I didn't actually "expose his method". I said how I would perform such an effect. We have discussions about how to perform various stunts here a fair bit. If I wish to give my thinking away, where is the harm? Nothing I mentioned came from anyone elses work I have ever bought or read.
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
MickeyPainless
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Just the fact that it's done to "Hells Bells" wins my nod! Smile

Good stuff man,

Mick
chichi711
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Quote:
On 2008-09-04 12:12, Cyberqat wrote:
Quote:
You have seen clips of this cat right? I mean honest you watched them? Some of the worst magic I have ever seen.


Ad hominem attack is one of the 5 standard fallacies of propaganda.

You are quite welcome to your opinions on my video post. In fact, make them constructive and I'd welcome them in that forum.

My skills or lack thereof as a performer however are 100% irrelevant to the issue at hand. This is not a performance contest. I absolutely give Alexandre that he did a nice job presenting his illusion.

This is totally and solely about the ethics of claiming it to be anything *but* an illusion.


You took my post out of context. I was talking about you comparing Randi to Houdini. Still laughing at that one.
Cyberqat
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So...

Stone made some good and sensible points to me in the ethics thread.

I may well be guilty here of over-reacting. For that I will sincerely and truly apologize. Although there is *some*evidence of some people taking this thing seriously, the youtube posts that have followed since the first few I saw seem to be pretty sane and sensible.

Even though I'm not sure I did anything wrong by talking about my own ideas of how to accomplish such a stunt using mechanical forces such as any lay engineer might, there is no doubt that that post did nothing constructive for the conversation and I will absolutely apologize for that. It was an unnecessary and somewhat mean spirited post and if the mods care to delete it, that is fine with me.

I DO still think there is an ethical danger here that we as magicians (or even just ameture enthusiasts) aught to take seriously. But we can discuss that further in the ethics page.

So, my apologies to Alexandre for over-reacting and the community for stirring a "tempest in a tea-pot".

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On 2008-09-04 13:01, chichi711 wrote:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On 2008-09-04 12:12, Cyberqat wrote:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You have seen clips of this cat right? I mean honest you watched them? Some of the worst magic I have ever seen.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Ad hominem attack is one of the 5 standard fallacies of propaganda.

You are quite welcome to your opinions on my video post. In fact, make them constructive and I'd welcome them in that forum.

My skills or lack thereof as a performer however are 100% irrelevant to the issue at hand. This is not a performance contest. I absolutely give Alexandre that he did a nice job presenting his illusion.

This is totally and solely about the ethics of claiming it to be anything *but* an illusion.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You took my post out of context. I was talking about you comparing Randi to Houdini. Still laughing at that one.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No offense friend but you took MY comment out of context. Or maybe I just expressed it so badly you misunderstood.

I was comparing my concern about magicians leading the general public into false mystical beliefs to Randi and Houdini. Not my performances.
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
chichi711
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Quote:
On 2008-09-01 23:37, Cyberqat wrote:


Great magicians from Houdini to the Amazing Randi have spent a good portion of their professional lives drawing that line and debunking so called mystics.



Here is what I am talking about. You said "my performance" are you randi?
Might I also add that Randi is payed VERY VERY well for that "burden"
Cyberqat
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Huh?

I don't see the words "my performance" in the above quote.

Did you leave something out? Give me the whole context please and I'll be happy to tell you what I was trying to say.
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
chichi711
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Quote:
On 2008-09-04 13:06, Cyberqat wrote:


I was comparing my concern about magicians leading the general public into false mystical beliefs to Randi and Houdini. Not my performances.


My performances. Im just asking what you mean by that.

P.s. you are good at this.
Cyberqat
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I mean that I never claimed to be a Randi or Houdini when it comes to performing magic.

When I was 17, for a mid-western kid I was acceptably semi-pro at street magic and did one really good stage performance. I'm getting back into it now as a very rusty adult and I know I don't even compare yet to someone doing full time local bar magic.

The video you mentioned was my first attempt in front of a video camera. Its awkward and stiff and needs a lot of work. I am however fairly proud of the patter, which is original. The folks here have been very generous with their advice on that video so I hope you will see some improvement in the next one I post.

Getting back to Randi and Houdini, the point of mentioning them is that I believe Houdini set down and Randi has followed in what is an important ethical burden for those of us who do study this craft. Because it can so easily be misused and cause damage to others (either financial or emotional) , I feel it is our burden to watch out for any possibility of accidentally doing so and to expose those that do so on purpose.

Maybe we should take this over to the ethics page for further discussion.

Maybe I am old fashioned, but it disturbs me in general that the idea of "magic ethics" seems to be considered irrelevant or unimportant by many performers today-- including some very big name ones.
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
chichi711
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Alright well taking Alexandre into that dicussion. When and where has he done any of those things?

I cant understand the total skeptical view of magic. Man its like waking up christmas morning and kicking santas head in just. Magic is supposed to be centered around mystery is it not? People don't have to have all the answers all the time. Hey I am tricking you and this is just to fool you and make me look neato! Boy that would be fun.

P.s. I never saw a video of you. I was saying Randi is not a "great" magician.
ALEXANDRE
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Quote:
On 2008-09-04 12:02, Cyberqat wrote:
*shrug*

If he had put the fact that he is a magician in his you tube posting this never would have come up.

I feel no compunction to apologize for attempting to expose a fraudulent medium. Houdini didn't. Randi didn't.

If that's a misunderstanding, well, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding but had he been clearer in his video posting it wouldn't have ever been an issue. It is however clear from the responses to his you tube video that his audience is ALSO confused on this subject. If he were to post and make that much clear to his audience I would be happy to 100% apologize for thinking he intended anything else.


It's clear to anyone who cares to glance that I'm an entertainer. Comparing me to a fraudulent medium based on a performance I did? Are you a beginner in this field? I post on the Magic Café! My videos on YouTube are under "entertainment", I openly sell a magic and mentalism book and eBooks ... are you serious?

Quote:
On 2008-09-04 12:25, Cyberqat wrote:
As an aside, I didn't actually "expose his method". I said how I would perform such an effect. We have discussions about how to perform various stunts here a fair bit. If I wish to give my thinking away, where is the harm? Nothing I mentioned came from anyone elses work I have ever bought or read.


You didn't expose my method because you don't know it, but you tried and that should get you banned from the Café as it is clearly stated in the rules that a member is not to expose or attempt to expose another performer's effect ... and that you did. My effect is not marketed and for you to mouth off about possible methods is unethical.
Cyberqat
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Alex,

I already apologized for making more of this then it really deserves. And for making what was a mean spirited and unnecessary post.

Lets not get BACK into an argument, okay?

If your interested in the larger ethical question I am then lets discuss it in general terms over in the ethics area.

regards

JK

P.S. If you sell books on mentalism. Do you discuss techniques? Just curious because there is an interesting ethical question here I think. Why should it be ethical for you to discuss techniques you've come up with in a book and not ethical for me to post ideas I've come up with in a forum? I admit that the post was mean spirited and unnecessary. I am not so convinced yet it was unethical.

P.S. Not that you need to follow my wishes, but I do wish you had actually put that you sell books on mentalist magic at the end of the video. It actually would have made me totally comfortable with it.
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
MickeyPainless
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***Why should it be ethical for you to discuss techniques you've come up with in a book and not ethical for me to post ideas I've come up with in a forum?***

Am I reading this right? Why is it okay for the creator to sell HIS ideas in HIS book but it's not okay for YOU to post YOUR ideas of how HE is doing HIS thing in an open forum?
I've read your post through several times and your questions reads the same to me every time however I'll wait for you to clarify before I give my opinion!

Mick
Cyberqat
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I guess I don't see the issue you are raising. Perhapse you can be more specific.

Are you saying that once someone, say, floats a ball it is unethical for anyone else to publish a way to float a ball?
It is always darkest just before you are eaten by a grue.
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