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Stephane Jardonnet
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BTW, according to Tim Trono, Frank Garcia had a version of the trick , that was shown to him in the early 80's. The effect seems to be not that new after all.

Mr Farquhar, you might be a very talented performer, but I am surprise you did not mention Mr Garcia's name since you've obviously made a deep research on the matter. Also, you are naming Cyril Takayama but how do you know he is using your method ? Where have you publish yours ? How do you know which methods he uses ?

Out of curiosity,
Stephane.
Stephane Jardonnet
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Mr Farquhar,

Since when performing a trick is a value to obtain credit of a method ?
As far as I know, you need to publish to obtain credit, wether it's on print or video, or maybe I am wrong ?

Also, would you have fully read my previous posts fully instead of reading between the lines, you would have red that I am fully ready and delighted to give proper credit to who it belongs to.

When you write :" It seems to me that the new trend in magic is to no longer care, credit or respect the past. That is a sad statement of fact."

When you write this, I would agree to this, but I don't think it applies to me.

Best regards,
Stephane Jardonnet
Stephane Jardonnet
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Just looked at George Schindler's Sealed surprise on DVD ( Entertainment first, demonstration only ),Very funny performance and the one from Greg Gleason's Theatre close-up Volume 2 Signed card to sealed deck, strong and direct.
Glad I did, I will name their version in the credits, but my version is different, even though there are similarities.
Shawn Farquhar
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As I suspected you do not fully grasp the issue and this will be the only other post I make on this subject. I will let the members of the forum and the magic community be the judge.

I will address each of your statements so there is no misunderstanding.

First you write: "You guys are funny. Tim Trono is working with me over here, I've shown him the effect month ago, more than once. He is one of the first one I shown and never told me of such trick was being made. I see him every day, five times a week. "

I was aware of your working relationship with Murphy's and your availability to Tim Trono, which I why I asked the question if you asked him about the effect. Tim is a knowledgeable and respected man and I know he is aware of my material dating back to as early as the World Magic Seminar in 2001. If you had asked him if this effect existed I am certain he would have given you my name as a reference.

Second you write: "I do not apreciate that you believe no research was made about this."

All I can do is assume that little or no research was made as you had no idea of Schilnder, Jay, Takayama, Gleason or my own presentations of the effect. I am not aware of Garcia's work on this particular effect but will now look for any information available as that is ethical.

Next you write to ask me: "...you are naming Cyril Takayama but how do you know he is using your method ? Where have you publish yours ? How do you know which methods he uses ? "

I can answer all of these. First I know he is using my method as we have spoken since. Second I have not published my routine as it is my routine.

Next is my favorite comment from you: "As far as I know, you need to publish to obtain credit, wether it's on print or video, or maybe I am wrong ? "

I believe that performance of a piece is enough to establish credit and ownership of an effect. Especially in magic where a performer does not always want to share his method with the magic world. Yes, I believe you are wrong when you assume that a performer can not establish credit for an effect, principle or method by simply presenting it first. This is the reason I competed with the effect at IBM, SAM, and FISM. To establish credit for my original method and effect.

Mt Jardonett, I read every one of your posts, more than once and struggled not to write to this forum. I would not have engaged in this forum except when you claimed that people would be able to present my routine using the principle you will reveal in your soon to appear DVD. To add to the insult you used the term "Deja Vu" which as I stated in my earlier post is a key stone to my routine. Something I am sure you are in no way aware of, even though you have done such extensive research.

Crediting a person and publishing a principle you may have independently invented or stole and simply crediting the others is not the most ethical approach.

Finally you write: "When you write :" It seems to me that the new trend in magic is to no longer care, credit or respect the past. That is a sad statement of fact."

When you write this, I would agree to this, but I don't think it applies to me. "

Sir, everything I wrote applies directly to you, that's why I wrote it in the first place.

As I said at the end of my initial post on this subject "But I suspect by the tone of the posting of Mr Jardonett ( reply to Bryan ) that this reply will fall on deaf ears ... " I am correct.

I look forward to reading your reply which I am certain will follow. All I can say is I hope you get all the success you deserve on this project. ( sarcasm )

Sincerely,

Shawn Farquhar

Once again thanks to the members of this forum who have respected my creation and are patiently waiting the release of my original effect in 2009, following FISM in China. I could not help but "sigh" when I read Mt Jardonett's comment to bryanlonden when he wrote "However, if you are interested to see the principle I came out with, you will not have to wait until 2009 ". ... shame on you ...
cardlover
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So I guess if someone wants to market an effect, they need to get help in research by doing what?

Sending it a thousand places and if it's good it gets ripped off by someone else?

I don't know and never have spoke with Stephane Jardonnet, but I don't think he deserves being treated like an outlaw.

Shawn Farquhar was not aware of the Gleason handling(according to him), just as Stephane was not aware of some also and based on all the opinions someone else may have, can keep other honest creaters from putting out good quality stuff.

It's the right thing to credit folks, but their is no one on the face of this earth that knows every handling of every effect, published and NON published(in this case)


No matter how much someone knows about magic, you can only try to do the best you can, while at the same time protecting yourself.

No matter how much research you do, you can't be a hundred percent sure it was not done before, you can only do the best you can and out of the hundreds of books I have read, I see updates quite often from all the big names in magic noting after their effect was published they found out something they did not know before.

Did they do something wrong?

Most of the time the answer is no, but I don't see people on these forums questioning them and I don't think they should.

If someone re- invented something I had been doing that was unpublished or no one knew about, I would not be making an a** of myself whining and trying to hurt someone that for all we know, has done nothing wrong.

We all have our opinions and I respect the ones above, but from what I have read, Stephane Jardonnet has done nothing wrong and I think he has handled this very well.
bryanlonden
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I look at it this way. Which of these two gentleman are acting professional? Only one; Shawn Farquhar. Regardless of whether or not this version is released in a week, or in an hour, I'm waiting for Shawn's version. He has earned my respect, and I want to support him.

Stephane's earlier reply to me was obviously very condescending and sarcastic, but trying to be the nice guy, I gave him another chance, and passed it off as a misunderstanding. After Shawn reiterated what his response was to me, and after reading Mr. Jardonnett's response to Shawn in regards to this effect, I realized his true character. I thank Shawn for voicing his thoughts and for helping to point that out.

Shawn, if you're reading this, I wish you luck at FISM next year!

Patiently waiting for Shawn's version in 2009,
Bryan
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cardlover
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Quote]
On 2008-09-08 21:22, Shawn Farquhar wrote:
I am not aware of Garcia's work on this particular effect but will now look for any information available as that is ethical.

Shawn asked me to make a correction on my post where I used the name Gleason, which should have been Garcia.

The point is still the same, but promised Shawn I would do it.

I wish Shawn and Stephane the best and wish no ill will to either.
Stephane Jardonnet
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OMG, I've just watched Cyril's Takayama's version, and I understand why Mr Farquhar is so mad for no reasons : It's all about the presentation.
Using a card as a cover to do the deeds in front of the audience is very ballsy and yet extremely ingenious. If it is Mr Farquhar's version, I understand his issue, and he should be credited for the presentation of the trick, definitely. This idea itself is brilliant, and I totally agree with him. If a book or even better, a DVD of the effect is for sale, I will be pushing to have Murphy's Magic getting exclusive distribution of the product.

Yet, I don't see what this have to do with my version ? I propose a method that you can apply on a bunch of other object, that you can use in a lot of directions. I am not selling a single trick, but an idea that should open magicians into a lot more ideas based on the principle. An idea that I had on my own, that I have shown to a lot of magicians including Tim Trono, and that seem original to them and me.

Like I said in a prior post, Check out for all those well made performances by highly skilled performers, because they might be really worth it. I am also glad to see that they performed the basic effect, because if the top performers do it on their TV special or as a performance to compete at the FISM, maybe I should raise the price of my upcoming DVD Smile

And very special thanks to Cardlover, because I was starting to wonder if anyone would ever get my point. I am not trying to offend anyone by releasing an idea I had on the stove for a while, that I have shown to a lot of magicians, and none of them ever said to me : Oh, this looks like XXX's Magician's trick or this trick already exists, and is described in XXX's book. After talking about it and showing it to numerous magicians, I felt like the green light was on to go on ahead and describe my idea. Those same magicians even gave me their ideas and share some thought on the concept.

Every day, a new DVD is released. Everyday, a new book is written, and five new trick are released.

Who have seen them all ?
Are they all new material?
Is the material new in its concept ?
Are they all giving proper credit ?
Do they ask permission ?
Do they even care ?

By Asking feedback on this forum should be a proof that I care, That I am looking forward to credit the right people. The Café is the closest thing from the Huge storage data bank that should exist, available to all performer / creator when they need to know what already exists. A kind of directory / dictionnary / Wikipedia style why not, that would be able to tell you what has been made before, and where it is described. Until such storage database exists, those kind of conversation will be legion of those forums...
sokarnl
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Also Jeremy Moncrief released a version couple years ago in his dvd mindfusion.

just trying to help

robert
Stephane Jardonnet
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Hi Robert,

You are absolutely right. Just looked at the DVD called "Mental Fusion" and performed by Jeremy Moncrief, and this is another version of the signed card into sealed box. I will definitely credit this one too (Even though they did not put any credits at all in their DVD).

When Mr Farquhar write : " I believe that performance of a piece is enough to establish credit and ownership of an effect... This is the reason I competed with the effect at IBM, SAM, and FISM. To establish credit for my original method and effect. "

I disagree 100 %. Performing is not a value to obtain credit of a method, unless you perform it on TV and that you explain it right after. If you do not describe and explain somewhere the method you use, you cannot claim credit for the method. If you want to reduce the exposure of your method, here is a solution : Write down your solution in a lecture note, and perform that lecture once and only one time at a local IBM of a very remote location for example. You might sell two units of the lecture note, but in the credits in my DVD, I can write down: as described in the "Lecture Note North Dakota tour, 1997"
But now, what do you want me to write for credits ?
As maybe performed at the IBM in 2008. If you don't explain the method you use, how do anybody knows for sure that this is yours ? What reference can you give ?
Each time a version is published or performed, you can say : Hey, it's mine, that how I do, but you still have nothing to prove it.
Sorry, but as far as I know, to claim ownership of a method, you need to publish it on paper, or on video. That is how it works.
Stephane Jardonnet
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Also, I want to withdraw something I said earlier.
I said : " I my version, and again, I am totally unaware of all others, you can easily do that Shawn Farquar's version."
By not knowing Mr Farquhar's version, and since I never saw the performance, I cannot make such statement.
It meant that any performance can be done based on the idea, but certainly not that this particular performance can be done. Beside, even if it can be done, that still does not explain how this particular performance is made, and even less that it is easy to do.
I wanted to clarify that point, because I can see how it can be misinterpreted.
Michael Dustman
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Quote:
On 2008-09-09 13:34, Stephane Jardonnet wrote:

I disagree 100 %. Performing is not a value to obtain credit of a method, unless you perform it on TV and that you explain it right after. If you do not describe and explain somewhere the method you use, you cannot claim credit for the method. If you want to reduce the exposure of your method, here is a solution : Write down your solution in a lecture note, and perform that lecture once and only one time at a local IBM of a very remote location for example. You might sell two units of the lecture note, but in the credits in my DVD, I can write down: as described in the "Lecture Note North Dakota tour, 1997"
But now, what do you want me to write for credits ?
As maybe performed at the IBM in 2008. If you don't explain the method you use, how do anybody knows for sure that this is yours ? What reference can you give ?
Each time a version is published or performed, you can say : Hey, it's mine, that how I do, but you still have nothing to prove it.
Sorry, but as far as I know, to claim ownership of a method, you need to publish it on paper, or on video. That is how it works.


That is the ***est dumbest thing I have heard yet on the argument to not properly credit those who came before you.

THe admission has already been made that you were not aware of any other versions becasue of lack or research on your part. Now the argument is, unless you wrote it down and even sold one lecture note, the idea is not original to you?

So in that manner, Michael Ammar who has had people begging him for years to tip his bill in lemon effect where the lemon reseals itself and has chosen not to do so, would be out of luck if someone else decided to market a version and not credit him? He has featured this for almost 10 years in his act and performed it as a "performance only" portion of his lectures. But he has decided not to release it. But because he doesn't release it, the next person who comes up with a method for a resealing lemon shouldn't credit him? That's crap.

For the record, if you think this is a newer routine that Shawn uesd at the IBM/SAM this year in 2008 as referred to in your last post that your research sucks. Shawn has been COMPETING with this routine for at least 8 years and maybe more. Many people from all over the world can verify this was used in competitions at IBM, SAM, PCAM, Blackpool, FISM, etc.

I'm done. Anyone want to buy a brand new never used Jardonnet wallet? I just bought one a few weeks ago but no longer have the urge to support the creator.
Stephane Jardonnet
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Hi Michael,

I am saying that you cannot get credited for a method unless you publish it.
You might be mixing up "idea" and "method" though.
You can have an idea of a new effect, but there might be 50 differents methods to get there. Unless you publish your method, you cannot be credited for it.
You can be known as performing the trick, but I would say you are right even about Michael Ammar. If someone else would publish the trick before he did, that someone else will be granted the origin of the method, not the idea.
This is not something that I have decided, that is just the way it is.
If you don't like my wallet because of that, return it to your local store.
The lecture note option is just one out to get yourself credited to the method of a trick with a minimum exposure.

Stephane.

PS : I have seen 3 DVD between yesterday and today on the Signed card to seal deck effect, and No sources at all. None, Zip. Might be the last time ever, I look forward to get those, it seems easier not to credit anyone that trying to get the proper one on the Café...
PSS: I understood clearly that Shawn Farquhar perform the signed card to seal deck effect since 2001, but which method does he use, that he should be credited properly for ? Does he load the signed card after the new deck is open while spreading the cards on the pad ? Does he use some blue Tack, a safety pin, a magnetic card, a deck shell ? Unless the effect is published somewhere, what method do you want to credit him for ? All of the above ?
Stephane Jardonnet
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Overall, the problem is different and gets deeper than that. I make my living out of creating trick, upgrading or helping people releasing theirs. (For the past 13 years)

Yes, I am interested into giving to Caesar what is Caesar. Maybe more than the average.

I sure feel offended when I hear that I lacked of research on the subject, after having spending 6 month asking some of the top magicians in the world. My friend Paul Harris has had the same issue with the new tattoo trick, and you can see about this in another post, which proves that I am not the only one with this issue. This really is any magician's problem.

So the question is : How can you find the sources and the origin of a trick without having to ask 35000 people about it ( And some will be very mean to you for asking... ) and more importantly, anonymously and / or secretly.

If I am searching on a new Holographic teleportation system, I might not want to have my competition knowing that this is what I am working on.

One suggestion is : Having a webmaster that likes magic, and that will be willing to build a website that looks like Wikipedia, but for the magic industry. Where anybody can fill up with the informations he has on a trick, on where it was first and later on published, that can clearly describe the effect, the idea, but without revealing the method, with a lot a key words for an easy search. Steve, if you hear me and wish to do something about it... Smile

Oh Bummer, let me guess : There's already 3 website like this you idiot. Where can I return the David Stone DVD's ? ( Ok, this was a bad joke )
Who should be granted the idea of such website ? The one that submit the idea, or the one who does publish it ? ( Another bad one )
evikshin
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Not to go off on a tangent...Stephane, your trick sounds incredibly promising! I got one question I know you stated earlier that there are no gimmicks aside from a pre-show set up, but I have to ask still: are you left with a normal box that can be thoroughly inspected after the trick? Also, in terms of the "set up," will I need to have anything more than just a normal deck, or is that it?

I look forward to a performance demo of you actually doing the trick for an audience--I think that would be enlightening to see.

Evikshin
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Hi Stephane,

re-reading some of the earlier posts: I totally agree with your distinction between method and plot (effect). Whoever was the first person to utilize the plot of a signed card into a sealed deck should definitely be credited by you. In response to a post above: if Michael Ammar was the first person to utilize the re-sealing lemon plot, then he should definitely be credited by future people who develop their own methods for carryiing out the plot first established by Ammar.

Now, regarding Farquhar's approach to the plot...it seems that he has added something new and never done before to the classic plot--the spectator gets to hold onto what appears to be a deck of cards, then have it magically morph into a signed a sealed deck. If your effect also includes this in the hands approach, then you should credit Shawn for the presentational idea, but not necessarily for the method.

Now, lets suppose that your method also allows for this type of handling, now what? I guess that's when we enter a gray area. If I was a consumer, and I purchased your trick, and realized that I could easily carry out Shawn's handling using your method, I would definitely consult with Shawn first before I performed the trick professionally, as that would be right thing.

Evikshin
jstone
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The effect looks great, and I like the sort of "cheesy sci-fi" feel to it. However, I would cut out the gratuitous near-nudity... Totally un-needed.

The impression that always gives, in my opinion, is hey the magic ain't that great, but look at these boobs... totally not my style, but this is not my project. It's yours, but you did ask for opinions, so now you have another one.

:)
Cameron Francis
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I don't get it. Why is everyone so fired up over this? Stephane didn't copy Shawn's effect. It sounds as if the method is different. The plot of a signed card appearing in a sealed deck has been around for ages. The only person that Stephane really needs to credit is the guy (or gal) who first published the concept. It's like crediting a twisting routine. You aren't going to credit every single person who has come up with a variation of "Twisting The Aces". You credit Dai Vernon. Unless your variation is consciously based on another variation.
bryanlonden
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How can you compare your scenario with Paul Harris'? Paul Harris and Joe Russell contacted Jimmy Kikuchi in regards to the tattoo trick. Do you know what happened? Kikuchi was impressed that Joe came up with the idea as well, and was more then happy to let him release it.

In your case, Shawn contacted YOU, and told you how displeased he was about you trying to market this effect, as he's COMPETING with it next year. You obviously don't care, so you are going to release yours anyway.

You need to stop trying to justify why you are releasing yours. You're a grown man, you don't have to, nor does anyone want to hear that same rhetoric over and over.

Just admit that you aren't concerned with Shawn's version and his plans to use it next year at FISM, and you are going to release yours without his consent.

This thread will keep going on until you just admit it.
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Cameron Francis
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Just saw Cyril's version online. Excellent effect! Although it's a shame he has not gotten Shawn's permission as it is the same method.
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