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Stephane Jardonnet Regular user since 2004 and already 147 Posts |
Also, I want to withdraw something I said earlier.
I said : " I my version, and again, I am totally unaware of all others, you can easily do that Shawn Farquar's version." By not knowing Mr Farquhar's version, and since I never saw the performance, I cannot make such statement. It meant that any performance can be done based on the idea, but certainly not that this particular performance can be done. Beside, even if it can be done, that still does not explain how this particular performance is made, and even less that it is easy to do. I wanted to clarify that point, because I can see how it can be misinterpreted. |
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Michael Dustman Inner circle Columbus, Ohio 1220 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-09-09 13:34, Stephane Jardonnet wrote: That is the ***est dumbest thing I have heard yet on the argument to not properly credit those who came before you. THe admission has already been made that you were not aware of any other versions becasue of lack or research on your part. Now the argument is, unless you wrote it down and even sold one lecture note, the idea is not original to you? So in that manner, Michael Ammar who has had people begging him for years to tip his bill in lemon effect where the lemon reseals itself and has chosen not to do so, would be out of luck if someone else decided to market a version and not credit him? He has featured this for almost 10 years in his act and performed it as a "performance only" portion of his lectures. But he has decided not to release it. But because he doesn't release it, the next person who comes up with a method for a resealing lemon shouldn't credit him? That's crap. For the record, if you think this is a newer routine that Shawn uesd at the IBM/SAM this year in 2008 as referred to in your last post that your research sucks. Shawn has been COMPETING with this routine for at least 8 years and maybe more. Many people from all over the world can verify this was used in competitions at IBM, SAM, PCAM, Blackpool, FISM, etc. I'm done. Anyone want to buy a brand new never used Jardonnet wallet? I just bought one a few weeks ago but no longer have the urge to support the creator. |
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Stephane Jardonnet Regular user since 2004 and already 147 Posts |
Hi Michael,
I am saying that you cannot get credited for a method unless you publish it. You might be mixing up "idea" and "method" though. You can have an idea of a new effect, but there might be 50 differents methods to get there. Unless you publish your method, you cannot be credited for it. You can be known as performing the trick, but I would say you are right even about Michael Ammar. If someone else would publish the trick before he did, that someone else will be granted the origin of the method, not the idea. This is not something that I have decided, that is just the way it is. If you don't like my wallet because of that, return it to your local store. The lecture note option is just one out to get yourself credited to the method of a trick with a minimum exposure. Stephane. PS : I have seen 3 DVD between yesterday and today on the Signed card to seal deck effect, and No sources at all. None, Zip. Might be the last time ever, I look forward to get those, it seems easier not to credit anyone that trying to get the proper one on the Café... PSS: I understood clearly that Shawn Farquhar perform the signed card to seal deck effect since 2001, but which method does he use, that he should be credited properly for ? Does he load the signed card after the new deck is open while spreading the cards on the pad ? Does he use some blue Tack, a safety pin, a magnetic card, a deck shell ? Unless the effect is published somewhere, what method do you want to credit him for ? All of the above ? |
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Stephane Jardonnet Regular user since 2004 and already 147 Posts |
Overall, the problem is different and gets deeper than that. I make my living out of creating trick, upgrading or helping people releasing theirs. (For the past 13 years)
Yes, I am interested into giving to Caesar what is Caesar. Maybe more than the average. I sure feel offended when I hear that I lacked of research on the subject, after having spending 6 month asking some of the top magicians in the world. My friend Paul Harris has had the same issue with the new tattoo trick, and you can see about this in another post, which proves that I am not the only one with this issue. This really is any magician's problem. So the question is : How can you find the sources and the origin of a trick without having to ask 35000 people about it ( And some will be very mean to you for asking... ) and more importantly, anonymously and / or secretly. If I am searching on a new Holographic teleportation system, I might not want to have my competition knowing that this is what I am working on. One suggestion is : Having a webmaster that likes magic, and that will be willing to build a website that looks like Wikipedia, but for the magic industry. Where anybody can fill up with the informations he has on a trick, on where it was first and later on published, that can clearly describe the effect, the idea, but without revealing the method, with a lot a key words for an easy search. Steve, if you hear me and wish to do something about it... Oh Bummer, let me guess : There's already 3 website like this you idiot. Where can I return the David Stone DVD's ? ( Ok, this was a bad joke ) Who should be granted the idea of such website ? The one that submit the idea, or the one who does publish it ? ( Another bad one ) |
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evikshin Special user 893 Posts |
Not to go off on a tangent...Stephane, your trick sounds incredibly promising! I got one question I know you stated earlier that there are no gimmicks aside from a pre-show set up, but I have to ask still: are you left with a normal box that can be thoroughly inspected after the trick? Also, in terms of the "set up," will I need to have anything more than just a normal deck, or is that it?
I look forward to a performance demo of you actually doing the trick for an audience--I think that would be enlightening to see. Evikshin |
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evikshin Special user 893 Posts |
Hi Stephane,
re-reading some of the earlier posts: I totally agree with your distinction between method and plot (effect). Whoever was the first person to utilize the plot of a signed card into a sealed deck should definitely be credited by you. In response to a post above: if Michael Ammar was the first person to utilize the re-sealing lemon plot, then he should definitely be credited by future people who develop their own methods for carryiing out the plot first established by Ammar. Now, regarding Farquhar's approach to the plot...it seems that he has added something new and never done before to the classic plot--the spectator gets to hold onto what appears to be a deck of cards, then have it magically morph into a signed a sealed deck. If your effect also includes this in the hands approach, then you should credit Shawn for the presentational idea, but not necessarily for the method. Now, lets suppose that your method also allows for this type of handling, now what? I guess that's when we enter a gray area. If I was a consumer, and I purchased your trick, and realized that I could easily carry out Shawn's handling using your method, I would definitely consult with Shawn first before I performed the trick professionally, as that would be right thing. Evikshin |
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jstone Inner circle Someday I'll have 1473 Posts |
The effect looks great, and I like the sort of "cheesy sci-fi" feel to it. However, I would cut out the gratuitous near-nudity... Totally un-needed.
The impression that always gives, in my opinion, is hey the magic ain't that great, but look at these boobs... totally not my style, but this is not my project. It's yours, but you did ask for opinions, so now you have another one. :) |
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Cameron Francis V.I.P. 7025 Posts |
I don't get it. Why is everyone so fired up over this? Stephane didn't copy Shawn's effect. It sounds as if the method is different. The plot of a signed card appearing in a sealed deck has been around for ages. The only person that Stephane really needs to credit is the guy (or gal) who first published the concept. It's like crediting a twisting routine. You aren't going to credit every single person who has come up with a variation of "Twisting The Aces". You credit Dai Vernon. Unless your variation is consciously based on another variation.
MOMENT'S NOTICE LIVE 3 - Six impromptu card tricks! Out now! http://cameronfrancismagic.com/moments-notice-live-3.html
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bryanlonden Special user Maryland 583 Posts |
How can you compare your scenario with Paul Harris'? Paul Harris and Joe Russell contacted Jimmy Kikuchi in regards to the tattoo trick. Do you know what happened? Kikuchi was impressed that Joe came up with the idea as well, and was more then happy to let him release it.
In your case, Shawn contacted YOU, and told you how displeased he was about you trying to market this effect, as he's COMPETING with it next year. You obviously don't care, so you are going to release yours anyway. You need to stop trying to justify why you are releasing yours. You're a grown man, you don't have to, nor does anyone want to hear that same rhetoric over and over. Just admit that you aren't concerned with Shawn's version and his plans to use it next year at FISM, and you are going to release yours without his consent. This thread will keep going on until you just admit it. |
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Cameron Francis V.I.P. 7025 Posts |
Just saw Cyril's version online. Excellent effect! Although it's a shame he has not gotten Shawn's permission as it is the same method.
MOMENT'S NOTICE LIVE 3 - Six impromptu card tricks! Out now! http://cameronfrancismagic.com/moments-notice-live-3.html
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Zhang Special user 515 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-09-10 10:38, Cameron Francis wrote: Exellent point Francis,I totally agree with it. |
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evikshin Special user 893 Posts |
Hi Bryan,
I think Stephane should only be concerned with crediting/consulting with Shawn if his version has the same presentational "trademark"--that of a loose deck of cards morphing into a box under the spectator's hand, as that seems to be uniquely Shawn's own take on the classical plot. Beyond this point, I don't really see a reason why he should be concerned with Shawn specifically, as he was not the originator of the signed card in sealed box plot. So far a full performance demo has not been released aside from the Youtube vid (half naked women included), so I think it would be hard for any of us to make any further statements regarding the similarities between the two effects, plot wise and trademark-wise. Evikshin |
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Cameron Francis V.I.P. 7025 Posts |
Not that my opinion is worth a mound of snot but, yes, I do agree with that. If the effect is that loose cards morph into a sealed case, then, yes, Shawn does indeed deserve credit!
MOMENT'S NOTICE LIVE 3 - Six impromptu card tricks! Out now! http://cameronfrancismagic.com/moments-notice-live-3.html
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bryanlonden Special user Maryland 583 Posts |
Very good point, but you're right, until we see the full performance, it's hard to say much of anything.
Bryan |
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Stephane Jardonnet Regular user since 2004 and already 147 Posts |
Hi,
The " deja vu " effect that I have described, I believe, has nothing to do with the performance made by Cyril Takayama (/ Mr Farquhar ?). There is no such thing as a morph of the deck or anything like this. It would have been a more than huge coincidence that I would have come with such a similar effect, not having seen it before, and it could definitely have been questionable. The " Deja vu " effect was suggested by Andy Amyx, very found of those kind of effects, and technically need the use of a gecko. Of course, you can have the deck vanish another way ( Topit, Servante, lapping, ... ), but that was the basic idea. You might know or not that Jim Rosembaum, Andy Amyx, David Leon, Alex Slemmer and Tim Trono work or use to work at Murphy's Magic. We brainstorm often and show each other's effect, comment, and try to improve anyone's product as a team effort somehow. Jim Rosembaum has a new gimmick, the gecko. Andy performed it on the video, I made suggesstions on the way to perform it, the effects that can be done with it, additionnal ideas that should be coming up so I will not talk about it right now. This is my turn, I naturally was thinking how I can apply the gecko on the signed card to seal box effect. The effect description will be like so : I pull out a brand new deck of my jacket's pocket, remove the seal and the cellophane. I have the spectator freely force a card, that he signs. The card is replaced in the deck, shuffled, and the deck is put back in its box. And boom ! The deck / card box has instantly vanished ! So I go in my jacket's pocket, I pull out a brand new deck of card, remove the seal and the cellophane, I have the same spectator freely force the same card, that turns out to be signed, and I am ready to perform any regular trick I want that use a signed card. The idea is to do twice the exact same action, but never to mention anything about it, and have the spectator react on his own, and think : Hey, wait a minute, I've seen that before. I'll play it as if nothing ever happened at all. I hope this clarify the " deja vu " effect, and I hope / believe this has no similarity to the effect performed by Mr Farquhar. At least, It does not look like the effect performed by Cyril on TV. |
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
Monsieur Stephane, before you make any release, I'd also caution you to explain your position on the controversey surrounding Pepé Le Pew.
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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ragingcalm Elite user 428 Posts |
Cameron, I'd have to agree with you.
This argument has (so far) no basis, except for a misinterpretation on Stephane part that I simply put down to english not being his first language. Stephane, people aren't saying that if you're method is different to Shawn's you need to get his permission to publish the effect or to pull it. From your early posts, it appears to me that you have taken people's comments to mean that you must not publish your effect even if it is completely different to shawn's. Understandably, you have reacted strongly to this suggestion. If your method is different you are entirely entitled to publish it (so long as it is different enough). Ideally, you would have an independent party confirm that Shawn and your methodologies are different enough, and would credit Shawn for his work on it (even if you were not aware of it when creating your methodolgy). If however, your methodolgy, although independetly created, turned out to be identical to Shawn's, most people would argue that it is unethical to publish it. Since Shaun has evidence of having used his method before you (assuming they are both the same) then there would be no way to verify that you have simply not copied his method and released it without his permission. Finally, if there are presentational elements of your effect that are similar or identical to Shawn's then you should also credit him and seek his permission for these. How similar the presentations need be in order to require permission from Shawn is a question of degrees. But the effect that the method lends itself too does not require permission, only the presentation. Again, I think this argument has arisen out of nothing more than linguistic difficulties and I hope it can be resolved. |
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ted french Inner circle Columbus Ohio 1946 Posts |
But does Shaun's method produce a bare chested woman as a kicker? Seriously that was so unexpected I was literally lol. That clip rates up there with the hillarious Brian Tudor youtube clips.
P3
practice practice perform. |
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Silvio Solaris Inner circle Xtreme Magic 1110 Posts |
If we only discuss method then the only method I know is with a key-card, a razorblade and some rubbercement. Anything revolutional would include the resealing of the cellophane that even withstands a microscopic examination.
Magical Wishes
Silvio Solaris 'Is all that we see and seem but a dream within a dream?' E.A.Poe |
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Stephane Jardonnet Regular user since 2004 and already 147 Posts |
Hi Silvio,
My method does not use rubber cement, nor a key card. I believe that is one of the reason it improve the trick from all methods I've seen this week. It also allows you to place the card anywhere in the deck, from the first to last card. Finally, it allows you use the idea on anything else that have cellophane wraping and a carton box, such as a pack of cigarette for example, and place whatever you want in the pack of cigarette as well. Stephane. |
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