The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Wessmiller's Weapons of the Card Shark opinions? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2
artwo
View Profile
Veteran user
South England
333 Posts

Profile of artwo
Quote:
On 2008-09-25 13:44, matu wrote:
C Loubard: I don't think that people were criticizing the value of the moves on Jeff's dvd more their execution. I don't know what's on the 2nd dvd and only browsed quickly through the first one but lets be honest: even a layman could spot every single move performed on that disc.


I think that's a bit harsh.

That said, his greek deal on the second volume is less than deceptive to say the least.
kcg5
View Profile
Inner circle
who wants four fried chickens and a coke
1875 Posts

Profile of kcg5
Quote:
On 2008-09-24 02:05, C. Loubard wrote:


kcg5, because you didn't get anything out of it hardly does it not make it instructional. I suggest you review it and really pay attention. Forte, by far, is the best instructional video out there. Turner is slick, but I would hardly call him with it by the look of his videos.


I never meant to say I didn't get anything out of it, just that he might not be the best out there.
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!



"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill
silverking
View Profile
Inner circle
4586 Posts

Profile of silverking
Whew!....am I ever glad I read this thread.
AMcD
View Profile
Inner circle
stacking for food!
3112 Posts

Profile of AMcD
Again, I think you should not care if some moves are poorly executed. You've got explanations, you've got several angles of view, you can see them in action. You say some sleights are not that deceptive, so what? I can assure you I have sometimes succeeded in making some very horrible moves working! Deception depends greatly on the people around you.

As usual some moves are of no interest, like the spider shuffle or whatever the name. But it's the same with every DVD, book, etc. To me, that's simple, there are books, there are videos. Both complement each other. Take the best from each one.

Videos are great because you can watch moves in action. Books are great because you've got to think by yourself. Sometimes a poor description and a poor execution brings you the light Smile.

Anyway, all that debate on "cheating" material is, from my side, more or less useless. All depends on what you plan to do with it! 9 times out of 10, you'll need to improve what you are taught, you will have to adapt the techniques to fit your needs. Do you think you're gonna rule a game just because you perfom a BD as well as the one seen in GPS? It takes much more efforts than that! You'll have to create some stuff of your own!

Consider all that material as a techniques toolbox. Sure some are poor, some are great. But none is useless, there's always something to grasp in everything. Poorly executed? Well, now you're aware about what not to do again! Uncanny technique? Well, you can see what the best are capable! Weird move? Well, maybe something is to be used or adapted to something else. And so on.

There's such a lot of work and pain to add once a technique is controled, there's such a variety of situations, contexts... Of course, the best the education is, the fastest the goals will be achieved. And after all, if you don't like something, well, just don't purchase it!
C. Loubard
View Profile
Special user
616 Posts

Profile of C. Loubard
Dowser, my apologies to you and Doc John for thinking you were one in the same.

Jeff's video may not be top source, but that wasn't the point. the point was whether anything could be learned from it. I didn't make the comment,
Quote:
No... this is not a good DVD to learn from for cheating purposes or for gambling purposes
And as Doc already pointed out, he has learned from it and manipulated things to suit him.

as for calling me out, go for it. this is about learning, and even you, I gather, learned something in some pretty obscure situations.

Matu: the point you raised I already addressed. Furthermore, that is not what was written. to repeat,

Quote:
No... this is not a good DVD to learn from for cheating purposes or for gambling purposes


no where does it say anything about his finesse with cards
Mr. Z
View Profile
Special user
Las Vegas, NV
826 Posts

Profile of Mr. Z
Quote:
On 2008-09-24 21:49, Unknown419 wrote:

Z as far as I can see throwing your voice is not as bad as being a puppet. Even though you're good, you know that I know that every move that you've demonstrated on YouTube even though done excellent was taught to you by Steve and your most recent move came from The Hop; this makes you a puppet not an inventor (I can edit my videos and post every one right along side of yours if you like to prove that I'm not lying to my readers).

Where is your originality? What have you invented that you can call your own? Since you have none, you're not qualified to say that Jeff W's DVD's are not worthy of studying because you're wrong. I've invented moves after watching both of Jeff's DVD's that none of you can do; and I mean none of you. His culling work is the answer to a lot of run-up problems that can be done at a table (over-hand shuffling). Jeff has cold deck moves that are excellent that he didn't even put on his last DVD because I asked him not to.

Jeff W., Alan Halcon, Jeremy, Walking Liberty, Rod the Hop, Steve and I invented our own stuff as far as I know, and we are still the best at what we do and no one can take that away from us. We wasn't handed ours on a platter like you, we took the long road and learned bit by bit as we traveled life's highway. Just remember that gambling is not just limited to the casino world and when you learn this, maybe just maybe you'll be able to pop away some of them strings from your puppet master.

Once you get it stuck in your head that if you can learn one good move from a DVD/video that will earn you money, then your money was not wasted. Now if you just want to demonstrate gambling moves and show how good you are then Jeff's DVD's are not the one for you.

Readers: I met up with Jeff at his place of residence a few years back and we had a good time going over things and practicing. Jeff helped me how to beat the Texas Hold'em game and the culling on the fly technique.

Z maybe if you take your head out of Steve's butt you can see the light and invent something on your own.

If I can learned something from his DVD's, why can't ya'll?


Respectfully,

Doc


If it ain't broke don't fix it. I guess I'll have to live with the fact that I'm inferior for not being "original." "Battlin'" Brian Tu-durr was right when he said "perfecting tha mahterreal isn't tha same as creating yurr own mattereahlllll."

Pfffffffffft.

Anyways good to hear from you Doc. I was wondering when court would be back in session. Smile
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
Unknown419
View Profile
Inner circle
1332 Posts

Profile of Unknown419
Mr. Z I have no quarrels with you. You do excellent work and in some ways I'm jealous because I have the same material as you and you mastered it and I didn't...Congratulations. Keep up the good work. For the record some of the things that you do looks a little better than your teacher. I know you've seen a lot so from this point in your life merge different things from all of your teachers and invent and make it your own.

Take care,

Respectfully,

Doc
uhrenschmied
View Profile
Regular user
135 Posts

Profile of uhrenschmied
Quote:
On 2008-09-25 17:35, AMcD wrote:
Again, I think you should not care if some moves are poorly executed. You've got explanations, you've got several angles of view, you can see them in action.


You are a big fan of Wesley James DVDs I assume ?

Seriously, this cracks me up. Not only poorly executed moves, but also from different angles. Nice selling point.

Quote:
Videos are great because you can watch moves in action. Books are great because you've got to think by yourself. Sometimes a poor description and a poor execution brings you the light Smile.


The shortcommings of a book without the advantage of the DVD makes a good instruction ?

Quote:
You say some sleights are not that deceptive, so what? I can assure you I have sometimes succeeded in making some very horrible moves working! Deception depends greatly on the people around you.


I would not bet my health on that.


Regards,
AMcD
View Profile
Inner circle
stacking for food!
3112 Posts

Profile of AMcD
Quote:
On 2008-09-26 18:57, uhrenschmied wrote:

You are a big fan of Wesley James DVDs I assume ?



Argh, you killed me. Well, not really a fan Smile.

Quote:
On 2008-09-26 18:57, uhrenschmied wrote:

Quote:
You say some sleights are not that deceptive, so what? I can assure you I have sometimes succeeded in making some very horrible moves working! Deception depends greatly on the people around you.


I would not bet my health on that.


Anyway, I can tell you that sometimes the guys have such a low knowledge about card cheating you can do almost whatever you want.
soccergod
View Profile
New user
72 Posts

Profile of soccergod
When the dvd first came out I got an early glimpse at it, and I talked to him about being able to see the moves, and I believe Jeff said that Eric James was pushing him to shoot it quick.
MetalBender
View Profile
Loyal user
248 Posts

Profile of MetalBender
I suppose I should respond here given that my good name has been dragged in and been whip kicked through a window.

I never claimed to be an authority on gambling, however those in the know are well aware of my abilities and my history at the card table. It doesn't take a lot of investigation to find out that while I'm not an authority I do know what I'm talking about.

I'm sure Jeff is a wonderfull human being. I often get mistaken for him. Seriously, the first time I walked into The Magic Castle someone asked if I was Jeff Wessmiller. When I get mistaken for him people are usually very happy to see me/him, so I assume he's a lovely person.

That being said I stand by my assessment of his DVD set. I will give him some props on his mucking. While I'm not a big fan of the art form I will concede that he does an adequate job in this area. He's not spectacular, and it wouldn't get the money, but he does allright work. I would still pass on this DVD in favour of Tony Gorgio's DVD. Why learn from the apprentice when you can go to the master? While I admit that he has a modicum of skill in the arena, he's nothing to rave about. It's OK at best, and highly suspect when he's doing it. The title of the DVD is Weapons of the Card Shark. While mucking is a weapon Jeff is using a two-shot derringer while others in the field are using fully-automatic weapons. The best I can say is that he's not bringing a gun to a knife fight. I think I've stretched that metaphor to the breaking point.

The bottom deal he teaches on the first DVD is a stradle grip, something I've never understood why people use. It looks wierd and sounds funny. I've never seen anyone do it well. There may be someone out there who is a savant with the straddle grip, but I'm fairly certain he hasn't been born yet. Jeff deals very quickly, and he doesn't scale the cards at all. Simply being able to pull the cards out from underneath the deck doesn't mean you have an effective bottom deal. He doesn't shade the move at all, and the tops and bottoms do not blend well. The odd thing is, he goes on in the second DVD to use straddle grip for a middle deal, and because of the fairly large step needed to effectivley remove a card from the middle of the deck it looks even weirder as well as being just as rough in the dealing process. The rest of the dealing he teaches is allright at best. I think that's a fair critizism. I never said he was the worst second story man I've ever seen, but he certainly isn't the best. I would reccomend Second to None by Simon Lovell as a resource for learning to deal deuces. Then again Simon has been dealing seconds since before Jeff was born, so he's got a fair grip on what works and what doesn't. Again though, someone who has been false dealing for a few years doesn't have all the nuances compared to a teacher who has been false dealing for a couple of decades. Jeff has some natural ability, but his false dealing is still awkward and very stiff. It's like he knows of them, but hasn't spent the real time needed with them. I commend him on trying to display so many different types of dealing, but it becomes innefectual. It's clear he's learned a lot of methods of dealing, but not mastered any. It's not fair to a student to learn from someone who hasn't mastered what they are teaching. I certainly wouldn't want to take a college course in mathematics from someone who had learned the quadratic equation but not mastered it. So while his effort is nice, the excecution leaves a lot to be desired.

I'm not going to go to in depth into the shuffles, but let's suffice it to say that the spider shuffle is not a shinning example of brilliance in card table artifice. If Jeff sat at a table with me and started Spider Shuffling, there's a good chance I'd stab him with Calista Flockhart. I don't want to be mean, but even Jeff's greatest champions should back off when it comes to the Spider Shuffle. As far as the other shuffles go, Jeff has a very respectable over hand shuffle and an ok push through and strip out, but again nothing new. Nothing that hasn't been seen. Speaking from experience there are a lot of new things that I can think of in the last five to six years that have been added to push throughs and strip outs. There is also a boat load of work that has been done with the Zarrow, and Jeff only brushes up against the most bare essentials of what this shuffle is. He runs into the same problems with his shuffling that he does with his deals. He's learned a lot, but he has mastered very little, a troubling sign in a teaching DVD of this scope.

The run-up work is very iffy. The over hand stuff comes straigh from Erdnase, but when he gets into tabled riffle stacking... well I said I wanted to be kind. Let's just say that his "Cold Riffle Stacking" leaves a lot to be desired. Keep in mind I'm trying to be honest and I am speaking as someone who can back up what he's saying, especially when it comes to run-up work.

The thing that struck me as very odd in the production of both dvds was the abrupt drop in production value from the first to the second. The first one looked very nice. The set was well put together, the table was a little on the cheap side but still nice. However, in the second DVD it appears as though it was filmed in a garage, and there are some sound quality issues if my memory serves me right. It was just wierd how the production value so suddenly shifted.

Here's the bottom line. I'm not trying to be cruel, but this is just not a good DVD set. I'm sure Jeff is a fine magician, and perhaps when he works for clients he's entertaining, but this is just not a good DVD. Many of the sleights that he teaches it appears that he knows the theory behind them, but isn't aware of the finer points. No he doesn't have the finnesse or polish that Forte or Turner have, but let's face it. Those guys are mutants. People that good are born once in a generation.

At the end of the day the DVD is an interesting excersize but not a high quality piece of work. So should you get this DVD? No. There are other resources available that you would be wise to explore. You can argue from the point of view that no one is as good as Forte or Turner (Turner by the way does have DVDs that are teaching DVDs and not just expose's like the Forte tapes) but that doesn't mean that this is a good DVD set. It was an excellent effort on Jeff's part, but it didn't cut the mustard.

I think I've given a fair and honest assessment of the DVD from a relativley unbiased perspective. So no sir, I am not a recognized authority on gambling. I'm not a Forte, Malek, England, Delgaudio, Ortiz, or the like. However before you shoot your mouth off again you should do a little research into the people you attack. Perhaps my original assessment was short and not as lengthy as you would have liked but it was an honest assessment from a respected card man.
"Magic up close and personal, the way is should be."

http://www.DelusionMasters.com
Mr. Z
View Profile
Special user
Las Vegas, NV
826 Posts

Profile of Mr. Z
In SF's Poker Protection he mentions a hustler who dealt bottoms from straddle grip--he said the deal and illusion were both exceptional. One of the best bottom deals he's ever seen, actually.

I think it's really premature to say something can't be done just because you've never seen it done well. Magicians are so limited in terms of what they're exposed to when it comes to gambling technique--mostly Vernon, Erdnase, Garcia, and Scarne. And how old is most of that?

Nice blunt and well-written review, though.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
C. Loubard
View Profile
Special user
616 Posts

Profile of C. Loubard
Metal Bender, your ability at the card table is not being called into question, and frankly I could care less how good you are and don't care who knows you and who doesn't... that wasn't my point!

Had you critiqued it the way you just did I would have never written anything. Your simple post with no substance is what tweaked me.

You personally not learning anything of value doesn't mean someone else won't. In my opinion, one should gather as much information as possible in their personal area of interest.

incidentally, I agree with much of your assessment. I also agree with Z's reply, 100%... I've seen a straddle bottom done beautifully.
The Dowser
View Profile
Special user
Canada
765 Posts

Profile of The Dowser
Quote:
On 2008-09-24 02:05, C. Loubard wrote:
metalbender, you're ludacris. obviously you have no knowledge of card cheating... yes I am calling you out.

Quote:
On 2008-09-28 23:36, C. Loubard wrote:
Metal Bender, your ability at the card table is not being called into question



Nice "rock and re-weave"… not very deceptive though.
C. Loubard
View Profile
Special user
616 Posts

Profile of C. Loubard
Funny! I know many a card handler with beautiful work yet don't know how to cheat. On the other hand, I know folks with not so beautiful work who know how to cheat

You see it how ever you want
C. Loubard
View Profile
Special user
616 Posts

Profile of C. Loubard
Funny! I know many a card handler with beautiful work yet don't know how to cheat. On the other hand, I know folks with not so beautiful work who know how to cheat

You see it how ever you want
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Wessmiller's Weapons of the Card Shark opinions? (0 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2020 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.26 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL