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Paul D
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Yes Joe Riggs aka DefyTheMind and I were considering releasing this until we found out about Jimmy Kikuchi beating us to the punch. There were also a few helpful members here in the Café that told us about seeing this done by a few magicians in the past.

So Jason, Paul Harris and Joe Russell have the phrase, "piece of strange" trademarked? Please dude, are you serious?

Back to the topic, whether you buy the trick from Ellusionist or from Jimmy Kikuchi, it is a great effect. Audiences do love it and so will you. The nicest thing about it to me, is having the ability to customize it to your needs.

And that's about all I have to say about that...

Smile
Astonishment as Therapy...?
Lord*Of*ILLUZION
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California
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Much Respect to you Jason and Paul as well....It is always best to respect other magicians before releasing a product.... even though cases of independent invention happen very often. I am extremely excited about Tattoo Joe as well as Paul's new DVD set....I hope everything gets cleared and you guys get the green light for this effect....
"Real Eyes, Realize, Real Lies"
Jason Messina
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Pauly Prestige,
Your post about releasing it to the community clearly comes after you knew about Kikuchi. And there is no mention of him anywhere on that thread. You only started filming the trick after it was demonstrated at the convention, only a month ago.

But I'm glad you mentioned it here. Paul Harris and Joe Russell have just let me know that they plan on working out a deal with Kukichi and giving him credit for his independent invention.As I said before, Joe has been working on this for about a year and a half and until today, none of us knew about it any other work being done with the concept. Appropriate steps are being taken to clear things up for everyone.

That's it for now. I'm going to enjoy the rest of my Friday......
lifeeyelove
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I don't know who is copying who or whether they are independant creations, but one of the tricks on the SEO Magic USA website called Moving Point looks a whole lot like Wayne Houchin's Distortion. I mean while everyone's accusing everyone else of something else I just figured I would throw that out there. LOL. Guys, quit being ridiculous. Let the creators of these effects sort it out among themselves and be happy that we are about a great new effect.
daisuke
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Hello, Lifeeyelove
I'm the guy from Seo Magic USA.
Thank you for visit our web-site and check our products.

We actually making Moving Point over 20years in Japan. Also, Moving Point "Pro" was released in Japan from end of 2006. In United States, we do sell both of the products since from when we establish our company in U.S. which it was happened in summer 2007.

We're proudly making our original products and distributing Japanese magic products which directly imports from original creators.

Hope this will help for your information.

Thank you,
Daisuke
takeachance
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If you got info from a peek, could you get that to appear on your arm as in ashes on arm
cheerz
Steve Haynes
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The product seems to have been around for a while, but the idea of using it for magic is great.

Tattoo Joe looks more magical(deceptive) to me after watching the original clip several times, as you can reveal a thought, card and so on.

It's just my opinion, but Tattoo Joe, seems to push the idea to a more magical place.

http://www.vimeo.com/1667860
ted french
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You know whats funny, some people walk around wearing those things like they have tatoos. Its like when yuppies buy harley's
P3
practice practice perform.
Tony Iacoviello
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Eternal Order
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Jason:

It is great to see someone with integrity, thank you for standing up and doing the right thing. You have my respect!
--------------


Tony Iacoviello
DefyTheMind
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I just wanted Kikuchi to be mentioned. That is all.

Paul and I considered and US release, but would only do that with Kikuchi being informed, but we abandoned that idea long before asking was necessary.

I decided I would rather keep this down, and just perform it. It is to beautiful commercialize. Well, to late for that.

But when I saw Tattoo Joe, I knew that someone had to say something on Kikuchi's behalf, being as he has been selling this for some time. It is only fair. Not to claim originality for something, someone, is selling, at the IBM/SAM convention already.

I have no problem with Russell, he has made great advances, and that is great. And he should release his version by all means, with credit given althought.

Ellusionist is my problem. It will just go into the hands of thousands of 13/14 year old "mindfreakies" who will then race to be the first to post thier "tutorial exposed" on youtube. But at least Brad Christian gets paid right?

I mean after all, he could really use surgery on his ears, and to move his eyes a little further apart, I mean its just creepy looking.

He is a Cancer in the Body of Magic Retail.

And I just can't stand his can't stand his camp taking credit for so many things they didn't originate.

Joe Russell is doing a fine thing, it's everything surrounding it that is Sad.

-Joe Riggs
"The secret to life is to appreciate the pleasure of being terribly decieved." -Oscar Wilde
Donal Chayce
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Quote:
On 2008-09-04 20:41, deputy wrote:
You?


Congratulations--give that man a cigar! Smile
Merlin
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Palmerton, Pa
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Quote:
On 2008-09-06 13:58, DefyTheMind wrote:
Ellusionist is my problem. It will just go into the hands of thousands of 13/14 year old "mindfreakies" who will then race to be the first to post thier "tutorial exposed" on youtube. But at least Brad Christian gets paid right?


You are not upset with "Paul Harris Creations" for releasing this effect. And you are not upset with The Astonishment Project for selling the effect, but you rant about Ellusionist? And you also get upset because the owner of Ellusionist actually gets paid for running a business? I am sure the owner of The Astonishment Project is selling this with no profit in his pocket.

If Murphy's was the distributor of this product, every magic outlet would be selling this.

What is it with you people and Ellusionist?

Quote:
I mean after all, he could really use surgery on his ears, and to move his eyes a little further apart, I mean its just creepy looking.

He is a Cancer in the Body of Magic Retail.


This is very mature.
bryanlonden
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He already stated the problem he has with Ellusionist. These kids who do magic as a fad will have their parents buy them the new E release, and then they'll put it online and if they don't do a video tutorial, they'll often perform it so horribly that you can figure it out.

These kids we're talking about don't know anything about Murphys Magic, or even Paul Harris for that matter. All they know is whenever E has a new product, they're getting it.

As other people on this thread have mentioned, they've had people look up some of these well marketed tricks and figured out how to do them from these online tutorials.

So if you filmed yourself doing anything E put out, and put it on youtube, you'd have a million kids asking you to ****ing trade you like the tricks are Pokemon cards.Not to mention all the others who will comment and be like "ok this is how he does it"

Ellusionist is to magic as Wal-Mart is to small business.
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Merlin
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Quote:
On 2008-09-06 15:21, bryanlonden wrote:
He already stated the problem he has with Ellusionist. These kids who do magic as a fad will have their parents buy them the new E release, and then they'll put it online and if they don't do a video tutorial, they'll often perform it so horribly that you can figure it out.


You actually believe that because Ellusionist sells magic products, all that you mention above is their doing?

You know for a fact, that every 13/14 year old kid, as you say, "millions", only purchase their effects from Ellusionist? You know that they do not purchase from Penguin, Hank Lee, The Trickery, etc. If you do a search for magic stores, many of these stores come up. But they only purchase from Ellusionist. And you did a survey to prove this?

I am only trying to understand, where those that bash Ellusionist, are getting all their "facts" from, to back up their statements.

I did a search on youtube for various combinations, including, "Magic Tricks Revealed". I went through 10 pages of videos, and did not see one mention of any effects from Ellusionist.

Even if there were videos of Ellusionist products, I fail to see how it is their fault, only because they are the retailer for that product. Please enlighten me.

Quote:
So if you filmed yourself doing anything E put out, and put it on youtube, you'd have a million kids asking you


Again, why only what E puts out?? Why not what Theory 11, or Penguin, or Sankey puts out? Or any other retailer for that matter.

I am really trying to figure out where the animosity comes from, and why only directed at them.

Quote:
Ellusionist is to magic as Wal-Mart is to small business.


You have got to be kidding? Please explain what that even means, I am curious.
Newb2
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Ellusionist needs to work harder on getting torrents of their videos removed.
Phatmeat
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Quote:
I mean after all, he could really use surgery on his ears, and to move his eyes a little further apart, I mean its just creepy looking.

He is a Cancer in the Body of Magic Retail.


Wow, harsh. But how do you really feel?

Listen, I completely understand that the youngins contribute greatly to all of the exposure with their shameful performances and tutorial videos (I see it all too frequently), and I also realize that E's primary market consists of these youngins, so naturally when they put out products the internet becomes saturated with the exposure videos...however, what would you have them do? Is this really their fault? Sure, they appeal to that demographic but they aren't the only ones. Let's not forget about Theory11, who's target demographic is the same as E's. Penguin is another one that someone else mentioned.

There are many individuals in this demographic who don't respect the art. But what would you expect the company to do in order to alleviate this?
Phatmeat
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Quote:
On 2008-09-06 17:32, Newb2 wrote:
Ellusionist needs to work harder on getting torrents of their videos removed.


Good suggestion, but I would compare that to the war against drugs. It's not exactly a battle that can be won.

P.S.:
By the way, there's also a ridiculous amount of magic torrents out there that are magic products not sought after by your average E buyer. What I'm trying to say is that the number of magic-related torrents out there are numerous and range from every aspect of magic that you can possibly think of, while only a fraction of these are E products or products carried by E. So it's not just E's demographic who is the problem.
bryanlonden
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Wow, I really hope you didn't take the word "millions" literally.

But ok, let's take everything literally.
I said, "These kids who do magic as a fad" and "These kids we're talking about", never did I mention "EVERY 13 to 14 year old".

Look at Ellusionist's website, read their descriptions of products. Then go to Hank Lee. You tell me, what kid would buy from Hank Lee after seeing Ellusionist's site? Theory 11 is the same thing dude. And yeah, there are "millions" of kids doing Airtight on YouTube.

I speak from personal experience. I decided I wanted to learn magic, so guess what was the first place I found, yep, Ellusionist. I couldn't wait to get my hands on these tricks which would help make me "start my own religion". In my eyes, this was all I needed. It hadn't taken me long to realize all of the tricks they had were being showcased on YouTube.

Try this yourself.
Let's say I performed Stigmata for someone. Let's say they wanted to look it up. So go to Google and type "blood on arm magic tutorial".

That is the FIRST thing that popped in my head, I couldn't imagine if I actually sat down and searched for a whole minute.

The first result is a Youtube post.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJuEFRqvxZU

With complete disregard to the video, scroll down and read the comments.
Hmm, one kid wants to trade for Lee Asher's Witness! Well that would be from Theory11, which I stated, is doing the same thing as E.

Scroll down a little more, and someone reveals

Revolution - by Ellusionist
Stigmata - by Ellusionist
Indecent - by Ellusionist
Infusion - by Ellusionist
Mindbender - by Ellusionist
Ultimate CTW - by Ellusionist

So now the web surfer has not only found the trick he was looking for, but now he knows the names and methods of 6 other effects. Another Google search will bring him to the Ellusionist website, where this only gets worse.

How could you refute that? It's not just E I'm talking about, as I said Theory11 is doing the same thing. Seo-magic had their moving point out for a long time, and when I learned about it awhile ago I couldn't wait to get it. Now Theory11 has Distortion, which has hyped it up to this same impressionable audience of these "millions" of kids. Needless to say, I don't want it anymore.

I don't know if you've ever actually performed for a paying gig. But I wouldn't want to do a trick for a kid at a restaurant and then he comes back a week later and tells me he knows how he did it. On the contrary, I've used Angel Case from AoA...good luck ever finding that; he'd have to read a *** book first.


The analogy about Wal-mart and Ellusionist should make sense. But sure, I'll explain it.

Wal-mart sells and markets inexpensive products to low to middle income families, passing along great savings which are too good to pass up.
Their advantage over smaller businesses is that it's a one-stop-shop which will save consumers money. This money that is saved will then be used to pay their bills, and buy gas. On the other hand, small businesses suffer because they lose money. Therefore, Wal-mart is a detriment to small businesses.

Ellusionist sells and markets to young and impressionable kids, whose offers of fitting in and having control are too good to pass up. (This explains why they reveal OTHER MAGICIAN'S creations to people on the internet.. Note the words "Become amazing" and "get famous" on their homepage. Ugh)
Their advantage over other magic shops is that they are a "street magic training facility" (again, direct quote) which specifically targets these types of kids.
These kids butcher and reveal the effects over the internet, either because they have no regards for the magician's code, or because they want to feel cool and accepted. Magicians suffer because anyone can jump on the internet and find out how to do these tricks. Why would you want to perform something that everyone else is doing anyways?

Funny how they had commercials on VH1 during Celebracadabra. I don't see Hank Lee selling magic tricks on TV.

Perhaps I'm being too critical. But I'd have to believe that most other magicians would agree with me rather than disagree.
NEW Conscious clothing to inspire yourself and others.

http://www.thisisdivisions.com
bryanlonden
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Quote:
There are many individuals in this demographic who don't respect the art. But what would you expect the company to do in order to alleviate this?


Put their effects in books.

But then sales would go down...
NEW Conscious clothing to inspire yourself and others.

http://www.thisisdivisions.com
Michael Peterson
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Quote:
On 2008-09-06 18:17, bryanlonden wrote:
Quote:
There are many individuals in this demographic who don't respect the art. But what would you expect the company to do in order to alleviate this?


Put their effects in books.

But then sales would go down...


:righton:

So true!


Mike
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