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tommy
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How many extra Aces or Tens or whatever would you need to add to a six deck shoe to tip the odds enough to give you the edge rather than the casino?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
kcg5
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I cant wait for this one...
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!



"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill
tommy
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Firstly I am not a 21 man so what I am about to say is probably wrong.

The card count at the start is 0 and if I add say an Ace and a Ten to the 6 decks then the count would be + 2.

The higher the plus count the better my chance. But how many pluses would I need to have to overcome the casino’s edge? How extra Tens and Aces would I need to put in at the start?

Does that make sense?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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JasonEngland
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Tommy,

First of all, you have to remember to divide by the number of decks remaining to compute your "true count" from the "running count."

Adding an Ace and a 10 to a 6 deck shoe would increase your edge only very slightly.

Remember, you start off a bit in the negative even with good rules and solid basic strategy play in blackjack, so adding only a single Ace may not be enough to give you a positive expectation.

My off-the-cuff guess is that adding 6-10 Aces would produce a noticeable edge in 6 decks, but adding 12 - 15 would be really nice. Adding 3 or 4 might be the minimum you'd need to show a theoretical edge though.

Jason

PS: Adding all Aces as I've done above is going to be much stronger than adding a mixture of Aces and 10s (or just 10s).
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uhrenschmied
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Not having my bookshelf with me I would generally say, you need add enough cards to raise the count to the point where your system says it is sensible to raise your bets. If memory serves right this depends on the count you are using, so I doubt there is only one correct answer.

Regards,
tommy
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Thank you most kindly for your help. I have heard of bent casio's taking out some Tens and Aces so to increase their edge and I thought well it could work both ways, as the player could put extra Tens or Aces in.........or take out some low cards perhaps.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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JasonEngland
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Uhrenschmied and Tommy,

I took the question to mean: "Assuming you are NOT counting cards and are only playing basic strategy, how many Aces and/or 10s do you have to add to a six deck shoe to gain an edge?"

Because otherwise, the answer is "none." You can get an edge by counting cards with ZERO additional Aces as long as you count properly, get good penetration, and are allowed a decent bet spread.

The question makes no sense if you allow for card counting to come into play. My first answer assumed that basic strategy was what was being considered, but I didn't do a very good job of making that clear.

Jason
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gadfly3d
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Jason if you are counting then knowing the number of additional tens and aces will increase your edge. Of course you also need to assume a set of rules and that the deck is not from a continuous shuffler/
splice
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Gadfly, of course it will increase your edge, whether you're counting or not.

The question was "How many extra Aces or Tens or whatever would you need to add to a six deck shoe to tip the odds enough to give you the edge rather than the casino?".

From that perspective, if you are counting, the answer may well be 0. You do not need any extras to get an edge if the conditions are right, as Jason explained.
tommy
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For what it is worth may I just say; My instinct is that the more extra Aces and Tens that one adds or the more Low cards one removes, the more likely it is that high count situations will arise during the game as you play and count.
Although the count would certainly be against you at times it would be with you more than normal. I will have to a buy a book on counting and 21 play strategy I just don’t get it enough at the moment to get the points that Jason is making.

In any event I was thinking two 21 dealers in the same casino could switch some cards; high for low from one shoe to another. So one table would be dealing with a rich shoe while the other from a poor one to start with. Then we walk over to the rich shoe and play and all split the profit.

OR we could do it as a con by telling the marks the tale, let them play with their dough and then split it if they happen to win. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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kcg5
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It did seem from the first several posts looked at that people and looked at this in "different ways". It seemed to me, that it was just about odds, not counting.. odd how the question was answered.
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!



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tommy
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I don’t understand what you mean by that, you say that as if Counting is nothing to do with Odds. Counting is all about odds isn‘t it? Its merely a method for telling us what the odds are at various points in the game. In 21 the odds of winning and losing vary depending the state of the decks, the more Tens and Aces that are left in the decks waiting to be dealt the better your odds of winning are. It a way of keeping track of the odds.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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kcg5
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I took it to mean, how many ace/face cards would you have to place into the deck to give you an advantage. period. I was not thinking about the counting aspect, it seemed to me different ways of looking at the problem. and some seemed to look at it with just odd, some how it would improve your count. does that make sense? maybe I was wrong
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!



"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill
JasonEngland
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Tommy,

You asked "how many Aces/Tens do you need to add to 6 decks to tip the odds in your favor vs the casino."

If you allow for counting cards in that question, then the answer is zero. A card counter can achieve an edge with the normal number of Aces and Tens.

I thought you meant: a basic strategy player (non-counter) has about a .5 - 1% disadvantage against 6 decks. How many Aces/10s would you need to add so that the basic strategy player had an edge?

Since 21 is almost a break even game against a basic strategy player, the number of extra Aces/10s needed to gain a long-term edge (even without counting) is going to be fairly small. I'd guess that 6 - 10 extra Aces would do the trick. If you mixed Aces and 10s you might need 10 - 15 extra cards, maybe a bit less.

Of course, every Ace and 10 added will increase your chances of winning, whether you're counting or not, but it might take more than just one or two added to push the basic strategy player into the positive.

Does that make any more sense?

Jason

PS: Gadfly, just a thought: if there were enough Aces/10s added, you could even play out of a continuous shuffler and still have a healthy edge. If a basic strategy player would have an edge with say, 12 additional Aces, then playing those cards out of a continuous shuffler wouldn't make any difference.
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tommy
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Does that make any more sense?

Sorry Jason but I have to say, yes and no:

I agree with what you say but you seem to miss what I say about counting. You say

“If you allow for counting cards in that question, then the answer is zero. A card counter can achieve an edge with the normal number of Aces and Tens.”

That is true but just think on this:

Normally half the time the count is in your favour and half the time its against you. That’s because the high and low are equal and balanced and the count starts and finishes at 0. That is if you count the decks right to the end. Half the time on average the count will be high and half the time it will be low.

However when you put in extra high cards it is unbalanced and more than half the time it will be high on average. So the advantage will be when counting that the frequency of high counts will increase.

In short, a counter would want a few extra aces and tens in wouldn’t he?

I promise not to ask another question. It’s just bugging me. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Expertmagician
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Just take out some 5's, so you can add fewer 10s and aces Smile
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The Dowser
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Quote:
On 2008-09-13 21:43, tommy wrote:

However when you put in extra high cards it is unbalanced and more than half the time it will be high on average. So the advantage will be when counting that the frequency of high counts will increase.

In short, a counter would want a few extra aces and tens in wouldn’t he?


Not to confuse the issue Tommy but I believe that as you add aces or tens to your shoe it will become "richer" but the frequency of high counts will decrease, not increase. This is because the count goes towards the negative with every high card that is dealt. Also: any smart player would enjoy a few extra tens or aces, not just a card counter. In other words, If you are implying that extra aces are only of benefit to those who are counting ( I am not sure if this is what you meant ), then I believe you are wrong on that point.
The Dowser
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In fact, if a shoe was significantly loaded with extra aces and tens, providing a huge and unnatural advantage to players, it may stymie any good card counter who is not aware of the imbalance. He/She may leave the shoe too early due to negative counts.
splice
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Quote:
On 2008-09-13 21:43, tommy wrote:

In short, a counter would want a few extra aces and tens in wouldn’t he?



Yes, absolutely, 100%, a counter will be happier with more 10s and Aces. This will give him a *better* edge.

But the point is, without *any* extras, a counter can swing the edge in his favor. Without any extra 10s or Aces, the counter can get a 1% edge or sometimes even better.

This is not his edge on any one particular bet. This is his edge when playing with his counting and betting strategy, the same way a basic strategy player who's not counting gives the casino a 0.5%-1% edge.

In other words, if we are trying to answer the question:

"How many extra Aces or Tens or whatever would you need to add to a six deck shoe to tip the odds enough to give you the edge rather than the casino?"

If you are counting cards and the game has the right conditions (good bet spread, good penetration, no heat against counters), the answer is 0 extra Aces or Tens.
uhrenschmied
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Jason,

you are absolutely right, when counting the answer to the question is zero. To have the edge over a longer period in a given shoe the number of aces / 10s matters. Good of you to spot that.

However, I am not convinced that adding more aces and 10s would benefit the player using basic strategy. In fact, would the addition of more aces not harm the player ? Dealers would bust less often on hard 17 for example. The addition of more tens might make the dealer bust more often. An equal distribution of aces and 10s would counterbalance that.

The chance of a Blackjack increases for the dealer as well as for the player, which should give the player a slight advantage because of the payout ratio.

A higher possibility for a BJ might also influence the decisions on the insurance bet. This would need some calculation though.

If are we assuming that aces and tens are evenly added to to the deck, would it make any difference to the basic strategy player ? Except the frequency of BJs that is.

And, since the house has the best of it when both player and dealer are busting, would the advantage of getting slightly more BJs be enough to overcome the house edge ? Might need a rather large number of added cards.

For aiding the not counting player it might be better to add only 10s to the deck.

Regards,
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