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tommy
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Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
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“The most common method of cheating used by crooked casinos when making use of four decks is to remove a number of 10-count cards and replace then with 5-count cards. Because the dealer must hit a count of 16, the substitution of fives for tens avoids many a normal dealer bust and supplants these with additional dealer twenty-ones.”

-John Scarne-

So it occurred to me, the opposite would be true. To use the casinos own crooked method against them would not only be profitable but poetic.

:)
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
JasonEngland
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Tommy,

I didn't miss the part about a counter. It just isn't what you asked the first time around.

As to whether a counter would want the extra Aces/10s: as has already been pointed out, of course he would! You would need to adjust the count and the playing indices accordingly, but the extra high cards would be desired by any counter.

If you added 6 Aces and 6 Tens to a 6-deck shoe, instead of starting your count at 0, you would begin the count at +12 and bet/play accordingly.

Right off the bat you would stand on more stiffs, take insurance more often, double down more often, etc. In short, you'd make all the plays that you would normally make in a high count situation.

As the count moved, you would adjust accordingly. Of course, as The Dowser pointed out, the above assumes that the player is aware the deck is rich in high cards right off the bat.

Jason

PS: Tommy, remember, extra 10s and Aces are always good for the player (regardless of whether he/she is a counter), and bad for the house. This is mainly due to the increased blackjacks and increased double-downs that are successful. However, only the counter can properly identify when it's correct to increase his/her bet according to the remaining composition of the deck/s, when it's correct to make the insurance play, and when it's correct to deviate from basic strategy for playing the hand.
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
tommy
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Thank you all for all your patients and help. My instinct tells it has the makings of a neat confidence trick at any rate. I think I will go and net a whale who is loosing at the black tables and looking for some revenge on them dirty no good casinos.

:)
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Expertmagician
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Save you self time and just shuffle blocks of high qnd low cards separately. That way if someone wants to make sure all the cards are there (with no extras) they can count all they want. It was not your fault that the highs were separateed from the lows ?

NOTE: casinos spent years perfecting shuffles designed to break up patterns in the cards. They prefer to have a well mixed deck which increases the odds of a "bust hand" and keeps the count always around zero. In that way, card counters will not get enough of an edge to make a bet spread.
Long Island,

New York
Dannydoyle
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Removing 5's is the best and quickest way to change the odds in favor of the player.

That card removed is the single biggest swing of odds for the player. I suppose if you replaced those with 10's it would be even better.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
gadfly3d
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Quote:
On 2008-09-12 10:59, splice wrote:
Gadfly, of course it will increase your edge, whether you're counting or not.

The question was "How many extra Aces or Tens or whatever would you need to add to a six deck shoe to tip the odds enough to give you the edge rather than the casino?".

From that perspective, if you are counting, the answer may well be 0. You do not need any extras to get an edge if the conditions are right, as Jason explained.


Sure but knowing when you have that edge allows you to manipulate your bets. As to finding a game that you can count straight out here in the midwest-good luck
Andy Moss
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This is the my first time on this particular forum.This is a very interesting thread.A few years back I went through a stage of being interested with Blackjack.I examined all the possibilities. I tried to apply ever more complicated counting techniques to the game but soon gave up as my brain could not cope with the pace! In the end I settled on a simple 'high/low'count where 2,3,4,5,6=+1, 7,8,9=0 and 10,J,Q,K,A=-1 which I kept converting to a running 'true count' throughout the shuffles as best as I could.I combined this with a solid basic strategy which I was always flexible to adjust a little depending upon house rules (eg Do I stand upon 15/10?, Can I split on AA?).I always doubled up wherever possible and bet in a bold manner increasing upon my losses moving back down after a win.I rarely used insurance except on very high counts and on 20/A or 21/A.

A solid basic strategy, a simple count, and courage are the only way to negate the built in house advantage. Stay the course and bring a large spread (X100 the table min bet is not too much!)More often than not you WILL come out on top. However with the modern game expect only to be able to buy a meal and perhaps pay for the hotel room with your winnings if you are lucky!

As for rigging the shoe. Unless you are very in with the scene this is just a pipe dream. The best way is to remove those pesky fives and replace with tens. Just four changed cards in a six deck shoe should make a sufficient difference if combined with all the other factors I have mentioned.As to whether this would work in your favour depends upon many things but I feel will mainly depend upon the particular rules of the game (ie the in built house advantage.It is also important to be aware of the increased swing on the count.

I hope this helps rather than confuses. With best wishes to you all. Smile
Dannydoyle
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It confuses.

When you refer to "spread" most blackjack players are talking about the difference in the minimum bet you place when the count is bad, and the maximum bet you place when the count is good. This is refered too, at least in my experience as "check spread" or "betting spread".

You seem to be refering to a "stake" which is what you buy in with, or have with you at the casino, or a "bankroll" which is what your total gambling account would be.

Please clarify as it is quite confusing actually.

Here is why. If you have a check spread which is 100x table minimum, and that is what is applied and you start moving your money with a count, you can guarantee getting busted.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Andy Moss
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Yes indeed the point does need clarifying. I do of course mean Stake rather than spread.My mistake.
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