|
|
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next] | ||||||||||
AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts |
Sure. Whenever I need to know if the sun is gonna shine I'll read Erdnase too. Erdnase is the definite truth. Erdnase is God and Vernon was his herald. Anyone who dares criticize that fact should be given enough rope.
Please, play cards. Just once in your life. May I suggest 7 cards stud? You'll get more credit to post in a gambling area once done. Good nite. |
|||||||||
tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
AMcD
I am sorry but I can't answer your question since I have not read Evans Book yet but I will send for it. I can see though from what Forte says it is a good book. http://www.penguinmagic.com/specialorderproduct.php?ID=10741 I was going to say that anyone, a laymen for example, can say that cardsharps deal from the bottom of deck etc and they might even give a silly method of how its done, but that hardly shows they know what they are talking about and the books I have read that where written before Erdnase were like that. Erdnase demonstrated by his detailed descriptions etc that he knew what he was talking about. However as I have not read the Evans book yet I can’t if he did or not. To labour the point I am trying to make: I do not happen to know what n strippers are but I have a good idea what they are. Now I could mention them in a book and mislead people into thinking I knew all about n strippers when I don’t. Do you follow me? There are many guys I respect who are of the view that Erdnase was a magician not a cardsharp, that’s no problem, even though I am of a different view. I am of the view that he was for various reasons.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
|||||||||
magician8 Veteran user 383 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-09-18 20:14, AMcD wrote: I will, but I prefer draw, hope you don´t mind, 8 |
|||||||||
kcg5 Inner circle who wants four fried chickens and a coke 1868 Posts |
It seems to me he has plenty of cred to post guy
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!
"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill |
|||||||||
silverking Inner circle 4574 Posts |
8's a young regular here with plenty of cred.
What's with the insults AMcD?......did you have a bad day? |
|||||||||
splice Inner circle Canada 1246 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-09-18 17:21, AMcD wrote: I've got to say I find the above pretty funny. You argue based on the fact that there's no new material and say so a number of times. When you're finally asked about some of the things Erdnase wrote about, well, uh, "maybe I was wrong?". But then you go on and repeat again "very few brand new material". The Evans descriptions of Running up hands are nothing like the Erdnase system of stock shuffling. This is of course all besides the point. I'm sure that even if they don't use anything new, cheats are still cheats and are still cheating. Don't matter to them if what they do is 100 years old, as long as it gets the money. Even if Erdnase hadn't included anything new, that still has absolutely no bearing on whether he was a cheat or not. You can justify it to yourself however you want to. At this time there is very little chance we will know either way, and I do not think that the answer would change the book any. |
|||||||||
AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts |
Insults? Please give me a break. I'm insulting no one. There's no point to insult each other.
Some magicians are around here, and there's a rule with magicians: never talk bout gambling or card games with them, they hardly know what draw Poker is . Erdnase's book is one of the very first book I read a (very) long time ago. I had not a bad day, but when you read "please read Erdnase before posting" you get kinda nervous. I just answer the way I'm answered. No insult/offense to anyone. For the last time, it seems than no one has described moves the way Erdnase did before he did. Why posting again and again that there's nothing detailed like his book before 1902? I wrote it myself several times!!! He had played cards too or had at least a very great knowledge from the card table. He probably has used some crooked moves too. I admit that. How do you want me to say that? But with my 2008 eyes, it's not obvious he was a cheat! Of course chances are low we know the truth one day or another. Wether you agree or not with my speculation I still got the right to have MY opinion. I just can add that Giorgio's advice or even Mr Z's one show that I'm not alone in the desert. Peace. PS: don't worry tommy, I get your point of view perfectly. |
|||||||||
magician8 Veteran user 383 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-09-19 06:23, AMcD wrote: that's a rule? I could write many names to prove you wrong. 8 |
|||||||||
AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts |
I could name many of them absolutely ignorant about such words like cut card, Razz, ante, 2-7, split pot, KEM, wash, lowball or straddle too.
Magicians need show, demo. They don't have to go into stuff like blind culling, should be useless for them and very boring for their audience. Magicians are magicians. Card players are card players. Two worlds separated by a wide ditch. |
|||||||||
tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Has Steve Forte wrote an opinion on this very question? Not that I am trying appeal to authority, I am just interested in his opinion and hearing his reasoning. I know Ortiz is as sure as he can be that Erdnase was a professional. There are what we might call experts on both sides of fence and some on the fence, which probably is the more sensible place to be. A jury of experts would probably come back saying they couldn’t reach a verdict.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
|||||||||
h2o Veteran user 305 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-09-19 08:20, tommy wrote: I wonder too what's the opinion of Forte on this. Not that I think his opinion would be the ultimate truth and would close this debate but well, I'm not aware he ever publicly expressed an opinion on Erdnase. But I'm not part of the inner circle, so what do I know... |
|||||||||
luvisi Special user 601 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-09-18 17:21, AMcD wrote: If you were wrong about there being nothing new, even though you were confident enough to state it at least four times, what makes you so sure that you are correct about there being "very few brand new material"? How much brand new material would it take to be more than "very few"? Quote:
From memory I'd say that there's kinda strip-out shuffle in "L'art de gagner � tous les jeux" written by Robert Houdin in 1879 (or something very close). He calls that The Greek Shuffle or Queue d'aronde (still from memory). I'm guessing this is a translation date? According to Waters' Encyclopedia of Magic and Magicians, Robert-Houdin died in 1871. Is this the same as The Sharper Detected and Exposed? If so, I am aware of a pull through in that book, but not a strip-out, and could you to tell me what section it is in? If not, do you know where I could get an English translation? Quote:
About culling and stacking you've got some good explanantions in "Sharps and flats" from John Maskelyne (1894). Chapter should be "Manipulations" (or something like that, I don't have the book here). Could you post a small quote or a page number? I can find an overhand stack based on the milk build shuffle, but nothing based on jogs and breaks like the Erdnase system. Quote:
Geritt Evans talks about running up hands, stockings, etc. in "How gamblers win" (1865 I guess). Could you post the section name, a small quote, or a page number? I can find lots of work on the pick up stack, something involving an open milking of the top and bottom cards, and a stack using the faro shuffle, but nothing where you stack the cards during an overhand shuffle. Quote:
About the break, you're probably right, Hoffmann, Houdin, Rotterberg, etc. I don't remember something equivalent in theses old books. Good point. Oh, I was quite serious, but I realize that reasonable people can disagree about what is serious or not. Should you revise your claim to something like "Erdnase doesn't present very much that is new and that I consider serious."? Speaking of bottom dealing, what descriptions are you aware of from before Erdnase? Most mentions of bottom dealing that I know of only indicate that it is possible. The only thing close to a description that I am aware of is in Sharps and Flats, and it is a pull out from the front end, as opposed to Erdnase's, which is a push out from the side. If Erdnase is the first to describe a push out bottom deal, and the first to describe a bottom deal from the side, then surely those count as something new? Also, how about those false running cuts to retain the top or bottom stock? Sighting cards on the top and reserving them on the bottom? Since you brought up Three Card Monte, do you know of any previous mention of the lengthwise bend in the cards? Do you know of any previous descriptions of how to work the bent corner from which someone could actually learn? Modern Magic contains an attempt at a description, but it's horrible. Quote:
The performer takes up the cards without apparently noticing the trick that has been played upon him, but secretly (that corner of the card being concealed by the third and fourth fingers of the right hand) straightens the bent corner, and at the same moment bends in like manner the corresponding corner of the other card in the same hand. He then throws down the cards as before. I can't imagine anyone who knows nothing about Three Card Monte and has never seen it done learning from that description. Can you? Do you know of any other descriptions from before Erdnase? I speak of "how to" instructions, not just mention of the bent corner. Andru
Andru Luvisi
http://www.practicenotincluded.com/ |
|||||||||
AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts |
The problem is that we're not talking about the same thing. I'm talking about mentions (or poor descriptions if you like) you're talking about detailed explanations. About that fact, I've said 1,000 times yet Erdnase was the first to provide such detailed exposure.
I'm not currently at home, for a long time. But I've got some "computer form" version of some of my books (wise precaution!) somewhere in my computer. I can translate part if needed. PM me. |
|||||||||
kcg5 Inner circle who wants four fried chickens and a coke 1868 Posts |
"Please, play cards. Just once in your life. May I suggest 7 cards stud? You'll get more credit to post in a gambling area once done." ---
that's an insult. can see how it isn't. "I could name many of them absolutely ignorant about such words like cut card, Razz, ante, 2-7, split pot, KEM, wash, lowball or straddle too."-- I, to , am interested in this. who?
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!
"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill |
|||||||||
silverking Inner circle 4574 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-09-19 08:20, tommy wrote: The following quotes are from Steve Forte in reference to Erdnase with relevant passages in italics: "The profundity of Erdnase's insight and wisdom is apparent as he talks about the use of crooked gambling equipment, professing a "purist" approach- no equipment, no evidence- then continuing with his thoughts on: Confederacy, Methods of Shuffling, Uniformity of Action, Comportment, Display of Ability, Acquiring the Art, and Suspicion. Under the subtitle Confederacy, he states, "if sitting together so that one cuts on the other's deal, the possibilities become so great that ordinary chances will be taken in perhaps 19 out of 20 deals." This is one of the most revealing statements in the entire book. In probably 95% of all cases, this is exactly the way it happens in the real world." "And to those who have scoured the book searching for the cheater's best kept secrets, the first 25 pages of the book encompass many of the rules and truisms by which cheaters live." "Erdnase was obviously somebody "in the know" and "The Expert at the Card Table" is a book with scope that definitely lives up to its past subtitle, "A Treatise on the Science and Art of Manipulating Cards". His techniques are original, his descriptions are lucid, and his "attention to detail"- as many have noted-is still marveled at today." |
|||||||||
AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts |
I've got no time to debate about what an insult is. I just wanted an interesting discussion. But I broke the rule: never disagree with Erdnase, never criticize Erdnase!!!
Okay. Let's make it short. Erdnase was the best cheat ever, his book is the best book on crooked moves, no one will ever write something better. The one who dares having a dig with this definitive bible should be called an idiot. Magicians know all about gambling and we, just card players, should take great care about 'rules' edicted 106 years ago. The best way to stack a slug is of course the overhand shuffle approach we'e got in Erdnase (more particularly for 6+ players) and the one hand bottom deal is, no doubt bout that, the most plausible move in order to be unnoticeable around a card table. I resign. No more post from me here. I'm really sorry, I won't insult Erdnase anymore. PS: You can still PM me for true debate. |
|||||||||
splice Inner circle Canada 1246 Posts |
AMcD, are you really arguing that if Evans described some way of doing stock shuffles, then however different Erdnase's method is it is not new?
At this point it seems to me you are simply redefining your argument in an attempt to hold fast to your position. At first Erdnase had nothing new, then he only had very few new things, now it's not new because someone else had a totally different method which was nowhere as efficient, and not even described in a workable way. I don't see any argument ever convincing you, nor do I see any purpose in trying. What is it to any of us if you don't believe Erdnase was a cheat? EDIT: Wow. "I'm taking my ball and going home!" Good for you. If we question your arguments it OBVIOUSLY must be because we hold Erdnase sacred and believe no one should speak wrong of him, not because we have our own opinions. We're all just sheep, isn't that right? |
|||||||||
Vandy Grift Inner circle Milwaukee 3504 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-09-19 12:54, AMcD wrote: Who ever said that? You don't think Erdnase was a cheat? That's cool. What do wnat now? Everyone to agree with your overwhelming arguments? "Whenever I need to know if the sun is gonna shine I'll read Erdnase too. Erdnase is the definite truth. Erdnase is God and Vernon was his herald. Anyone who dares criticize that fact should be given enough rope." Seriously, why not just fall on the ground and start pounding your fists and kicking your legs.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
|
|||||||||
kcg5 Inner circle who wants four fried chickens and a coke 1868 Posts |
Amen
Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!!!!!
"History will be kind to me, as I intend to write it"- Sir Winston Churchill |
|||||||||
AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts |
I don't like the way this dicussion is now on. I didn't open this thread to watch guys fighting each other.
Is someone thinking I did insult him? My apologize, I din't intent to. Again, my english is not good enough to discuss about very subtle linguistic details. What the heck is the problem? My email box is widely open for those desirous to debate. |
|||||||||
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Was Erdnase a cheat? I say no. » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes) | ||||||||||
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next] |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.06 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |