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mikemiller New user 18 Posts |
Eric Paul wrote
Quote:
Well my question on exposing magic has not been answer or discussed yet. What is public domain magic? Is the cut and restored rope public domain? Is the rope escape public domain? Again WHAT IS PUBLIC DOMAIN MAGIC? |
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Blair Marshall Inner circle Montreal, Canada 3660 Posts |
My thought on what is "public domain magic" would legally be anything that is not under protection (copyright, patent, etc.).
However, that would include almost 99.9% of material being used by the profession today. Just because it is "public domain" (by definition) doesn't mean at anytime it has being exposed to the public. It has perhaps only being sold within the profession. Anyone else?? B
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mikemiller New user 18 Posts |
Thanks Blair.
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Blair Marshall Inner circle Montreal, Canada 3660 Posts |
And I am using "public domain" in the legal sense.
B
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McAllisterMagic Regular user 196 Posts |
Exposure is bad mmmmmmkay, however I wont state my arguments because they have already been said as well. In short exposure cannot be stopped no matter how hard we try.It seems like we are arguing over a topic that cannot be reasoned with.
cheers Francis McAllister |
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nowucm New user 4 Posts |
I view the issue of exposure vs education somewhat differently. There are certain tricks that have no cost and have no learning curve. A throw away trick that anyone can do. With others there is a "barrier to entry". If you pay $50 or $1,000 for an effect, you have a right to be upset. If you have a trick that takes 60 hours of practice to learn, you have a right to be upset. Exposure of these types of tricks to lay people are not for a teaching purpose. It merely satisfies an idle curiosity. People who just watch magic on TV aren't going to do magic. Entertainment is not enough for them. Actually doing magic would mean they would spend money or have to do work. I liken it to people who watch auto racing to see the crashes or the fights just to watch the blood. They aren't interested in the sport. Nor are these folks interested in magic as an art.
And I suppose it depends on the setting. You certainly could call that old physics experiment where you fill a glass full of water, put a piece of cardboard on top and turn it upside down, a trick. The water doesn't fall out of the glass demonstrating a principle of air pressure. If it were not used in an educational setting, you would consider it a trick. Exposing that principal is clearly an educational tool. This is distinguishable from an idle curiosity. Consider the setting of the mentalist/spiritualist. Here you have better argument for exposure so long as hucksters hold themselves out as psychics and attempt to legitimize being a huckster. Of course, that was Houdini's way. Was it learning or exposure when terrorists took flying lessons? Was it learning or exposure when a grad student got into trouble 25 years ago by publishing a paper on making an atomic bomb from information he got from unclassified documents? Of course, these are extremes, and magic is not so important. There are no clear lines in a lot of learning processes. Magic is just one of them. |
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Ken Northridge Inner circle Atlantic City, NJ 2392 Posts |
Nowucm,
Welcome to the Café I like the way you are thinking and it seems very logical to me. However, the IBM and SAM’s code of ethics are very strict. I must admit as a part of my Deluxe Birthday Party show I include a “teach-a-trick” segment. I teach them Color Vision and then give each child a mini version (D.Robbins) to take home. I consider this harmless, and from your post, Nowucm, I’m sure you do too. But according to the IBM… Quote:
Article II …its wrong! It gets pretty “tricky”, doesn’t it? Can you imagine the debate it would take to rewrite this article? Do you think even a group of 5 or 10 could agree? The group on this thread certainly cannot. That’s why I think this article is just perfect the way it is. Quote:
On 2008-10-03 11:31, Blair Marshall wrote: Ah yes, in the legal sense. In the legal sense I think you're right. That's why we just witnessed yet another Masked Magician TV show the other night. No one is going to jail over exposing magic tricks, unless they violate a copyright of course. We are talking about the code of ethics of magicians, the oath that we all made when we became magicians. I noticed there was a post deleted from an "I expose magic all the time" person, a person who has no profile what so ever. It doesn’t take much courage to make such a controversial statement when no one knows your name or cannot get a hold of you. This is what bothers me the most about the Masked Magician. What a coward! P.S. You are exactly 2 clicks away from my home address, phone number, etc.
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
www.KenNorthridge.com |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Actually I didn't witness anything. That is how I fight personally LOL.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Close n*
knowledge comes with implicit responsibility - and teaching comes with much greater responsibility - that is if you wish to have the self respect of an adult. As a child there is always "daddy" to make things better or forgive you or manage some survivable punishment. But as an adult it's on you. Now do you still wish to teach? And the rest... do you still wish to learn?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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mikemiller New user 18 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-09-30 18:49, Eric Paul wrote: Eric I'm glad to see that you took MOST of the videos off of You Tube but I'm disapointed that you didn't take ALL of them off. (That's your perogative). I'm disturb that after making that accusation about a vendetta and then claiming that you were going to contact me about it - you have not done so, It's been 7 days and I'm still waiting for the private e-mail. Mike |
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Bill Wilson Special user 536 Posts |
Quote:
I noticed there was a post deleted from an "I expose magic all the time" person, a person who has no profile what so ever. It doesn’t take much courage to make such a controversial statement when no one knows your name or cannot get a hold of you. This is what bothers me the most about the Masked Magician. What a coward! Yes, Ken there was a post from some such character. He was telling Eric (which this thread was originally about) to ignore 'US' clowns as he himself makes a point of exposing magic on purpose in all his shows, all the time. I asked him why he is calling 'US' clowns? After a while I went back to see if he had replied. One of the Café moderators had deleted his posting and mine as well. Obviously this ?@%%& was simply trying to incite something. Just as well it was deleted. Very unfortunate people like that are even involved in magic. |
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haywire Special user Philadelphia 760 Posts |
I'm also dissapointed because this person has obviously been doing magic long enough to know that this is exposure. Next, he makes claims that people in his market are persecuting him, or have some vendetta against him.
Hey Eric, I'm also in your market btw. I don't know you, I have no vendetta or personal bias against you but what you are doing is just self serving and wrong. You put your desire to sell your products ahead of keeping the secrets of magic, and that's just wrong. Had you not pointed the videos at your websites selling products, perhaps your argument of just wanting to teach little jimmy a trick would be valid, but its not because your clearly trying to profit from your exposure. I see you run a success in magic seminar. I've always thought you had to have the ability to keep a secret to be successful in magic, but maybe that's just me. Steven |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
One thing that people seem not to grasping on the thread, is the difference between a magic show and a magic class.
Giving a teach a trick leaflet (or having a teach a trick video accessable online at a membership only site) is like giving a sample of a magic class. Having a promotional video on your website (or a DVD that can be mailed), or giving a donated show, or even doing a sample performance for a prospect, is like giving away a sample of your magic show. Some magicians give away a teach a trick leaflet, and think they are giving a sample of their show. This is not correct. However, whether you give a donated show (or a sample performance for a prospect), or have a promotional video on your website, or give a teach a trick leaflet, or give a sample copy of your magic book, you are trying to bring business to yourself by giving samples / doing demos. Many entertainers participate in this ASPECT of business. We give samples with the goal of bringing business to ourselves. I still agree with the point that with a magic class (or a sample), it's important to teach the principle of keeping the secret. Part of the entertainment value is in the secrets / mystery. And again, for me, I would be very cautious about what samples I provide. - Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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Magicbarry Loyal user Toronto 276 Posts |
A couple of points to frame my comments:
1) People who find these videos are not average spectators who just stumbled across the videos and will now know what magicians are doing when they see them live. They're people who are interested in learning magic tricks for themselves. The videos aren't being forced on anyone. 2) There seem to be people upset with the idea that people can actually learn magic with paying for it. Personally, I don't think people should have to learn any craft by paying through the nose for it. Learning a few simple tricks for free is not a big deal, as far as I'm concerned. It generates interest in magic among newcomers -- that's the sort of thing I support. I don't feel that a person's ability to learn magic should be limited by their financial means. It should be an art of the people, not an art of the elite. Now, those are my opinions on the general subject and they're not likely to change -- nor are the opinions of people who differ with me. There's little point in debating them, so I'm not going to. As for the responses to Eric Paul ... and this is my main reason for posting in this thread: Message boards are breeding grounds for resentment. People love to argue from their keyboards. And on magic boards, the downside of message boards is inevitably going to become apparent. There's a tendency for magicians on message boards to rush into the fray when they smell blood. If they can belittle someone, talk down to them, and make themselves out to be good and pure and superior to the person they're belittling, they'll do so, and they'll forego both reason and respect for such an opportunity. That's the sort of attitude message boards breed. Not that I'm judging anyone in this thread. I'm keenly aware that even the most mild-mannered, and genuinely good people, can become attackers on message boards. Unfortunately people have taken a "code" and are using it not as a rule, but as a weapon. If we're being honest, Eric Paul has done nothing to damage any magician here. You will not encounter a single spectator who knows the secret of a trick you do because they saw it on an Eric Paul YouTube video. Yes, I know ... it's "the principle". But in the spirit of collegiality, if you feel a magician has crossed the line, isn't it better to treat it as a "mistake", and speak to him rationally about it? This thread started as an attack, and continued in that vein. It's accomplished little, except to build ill-will through browbeating. Is it worth it to continually pummel away at Mr. Paul? From what I can tell he seems like a perfectly decent person whose heart was in a very good place. He wants to teach magic to children. That's the kind of person that should be commended, not reviled. I'm not saying he hasn't gone a bit too far, but he's not guilty of a crime as great as people are making it out to be. As I said ... if you think he's wrong, tell him he's made a mistake, not that he's a horrible person. While there might be a case for saying the former, there are no grounds for the latter. |
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nowucm New user 4 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-10-04 08:40, Ken Northridge wrote: I guess every time you flash a pass you violate Article II mission and objectives 9. Hell, I've screwed up a trick so often, I can be tossed from IBM if that is going to be the criterion. If we can rewrite the economy, we certainly can rewrite #9. Things change with the times. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-10-08 10:53, Donald Dunphy wrote: Just because YOU choose to rationalise things this way does not mean that it is beyond the ability of others to "grasp". What I think some fail to "grasp" is how harmful exposure can really be. Hmmmm.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
Will Roya did a good job with selecting what segments to put on YouTube, when promoting his http://www.tricksR4Kids.com / http://www.magictricksareforkids.com website / DVDs. He stuck with performance only, as far as I can tell.
- Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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stempleton Inner circle 1443 Posts |
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On 2008-10-09 12:49, Donald Dunphy wrote: Donald, I agree, this DVD series looks great... wish they had been around 35 (gasp!) years ago. But there's one thing that I hear and see practically everywhere I turn when I see things marketed to kids... "WITH LITTLE OR NO PRACTICE!". Why do we continue to perpetuate this kind of mindset? I honestly believe at least one root of today's bad performances by "adult" magicians can be traced back to this childhood marketing phrase. STOP THE MADNESS! Ok, my tirade is done. Excuse my going off-topic. Steve |
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Tray Girl New user 11 Posts |
There has been discussion about "what is public domain?" I am curious if anyone sees this type of thing also as a trade secret issue?
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kenscott Inner circle 1869 Posts |
Tray Girl please tell us what you know, I am sure you have some information about this. So I ask you please answer your own question, I am curious.
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