The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Juicy Tells (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page 1~2 [Next]
artwo
View Profile
Veteran user
South England
333 Posts

Profile of artwo
If Juice is so easy to read from far away, does that mean that if you were using it and someone was viewing the cards from far away they would be able to see it obviously?


In demos and such for it, as soon as the card is a few feet away from the camera it JUMPS out at you, something I don't think your average person would miss. Or is this because I am in the know? Am I just paranoid?

In Forte's book he talks about how it becomes very easy to read from far away? How do people not get caught then?
stoneunhinged
View Profile
Inner circle
3080 Posts

Profile of stoneunhinged
Excellent question. Juice works when you are looking for it. If you aren't looking for it, you won't see it.

That's the rumor.
AMcD
View Profile
Inner circle
stacking for food!
3114 Posts

Profile of AMcD
Juice require a little bit of practice too.
silverking
View Profile
Inner circle
4586 Posts

Profile of silverking
Burns the card finish of new Bikes, but not old Bikes, blah, blah, blah, blah.......won't pass the gamblers riffle test, blah, blah, blah ,blah, cheap stuff and expensive stuff, blah, blah, blah, blah
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.....secret formula, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
artwo
View Profile
Veteran user
South England
333 Posts

Profile of artwo
Ok well assume we are talking about the expensive decent stuff blah blah blah.

I'm not asking for a rehash of the old threads. ExpertMagician has provided all the information on juice.


Its just a question of whether it is easy to be caught when, for example, someone is looking at the cards from across the room.

Thanks for the reply StoneUnhinged. I feel like "testing" it on someone saying "can you see anything special here?" but that would kind of defeat the point of having secretly marked cards.
stoneunhinged
View Profile
Inner circle
3080 Posts

Profile of stoneunhinged
Quote:
On 2008-09-26 15:18, artwo wrote:
I feel like "testing" it on someone saying "can you see anything special here?" but that would kind of defeat the point of having secretly marked cards.


Well, I've done it. I've asked my wife and son if they could see anything. Why not?

I wouldn't take the work into a high stakes game and ask, "hey, do you notice something funny about the cards?"

As for Expertmagician, with all due respect, I'll say this:

If you're working on, say, a bottom deal: you work on it and see how it works for you.

If you're working on, say, a second deal: you work on it and see how it works for you.

If you're working on, say, marked cards: you work on it and see how it works for you.

Buy what you want, and give respect where it is due, but learn to find out for yourself what works for you.
Expertmagician
View Profile
Inner circle
2484 Posts

Profile of Expertmagician
You all know I had to reply Smile ...

In general, Juice is easier to read from a distance (ie. across a table). However, "if you mark the cards correctly" then the marks will NOT be obvious to an observer and the marks will be invisible.

Marking patterns also come into play when using Juice. Some are better than others on different back design cards.

You still have to know HOW to read the Juice marks to read the marks near or far. It is just that it is easier to see (when you know what you are looking for) when the cards are across a table.

Juice is a VERY personal card marking technique which is one of the main reasons why I do not like pre-marked Juice cards.

Issues like lighting conditions, distance, etc. are just some issues which come into play when using a Juiced deck.

NOTE: The reason the marks were visible in some video clips when the camera was "at a distance" is because a "fixed focal length camera lens" was used for the video clip. So, when the card was at a distance, it was "out of focus". It was not distance that made the marks visible, it was the focusing of the camera. The human eye is not like a fixed length lens...human beings focus on things to see, so the marks are invisible to most mortals Smile Video clips are done to simply show what the marks look like after you practice reading Juice marks.

BOTTOM LINE: Juice is still the best and most deceptive marking technique which does not require a filter to see the marks.

Artwo, I hope I amswered your question.
Long Island,

New York
The Dowser
View Profile
Special user
Canada
773 Posts

Profile of The Dowser
Any person (except for those who know about the juice) that you ask to examine a card is going to look Closely. They don't have a chance. Anyone who sees your cards from a distance is not checking the backs for marks. The juice, if they see it at all, would at best look like a shadow or a blur which they may account for as their own eyesight. It will be in their periphery. It is my understanding that one early maker of juice was given up by his girlfriend because he stiffed her on a debt. She tipped his formula to a well known Security specialist in the industry (no not THAT one) who then handled the case which was eventually thrown out of court because the judge could not see the juice no matter how hard he tried. I believe there was a story about the juice which appeared in a time magazine article on cheating after it was exposed in this case. Late 60's, early 70's.
Expertmagician
View Profile
Inner circle
2484 Posts

Profile of Expertmagician
Mmmm, Interesting...I never heard that story....I know that I first heard about Juice in the mid-1970s....I would rather not say from who Smile .... it was not the media.

The I spent a fortune to buy more detailed information...over $2,000 was a lot of money for a college kid in the 1970s. I was able to buy a fully loaded new Camaro for $6,000 back then Smile But, I made my money doing magic shows and working with computers. This was when a 128KB computer took up a whole room and a disk drive was the size of a washing machine.

The sad thing was that when the US Playing Card Company changed their formula for the finish on their cards...my secret had to be significantly modified to be deceptive.....and the story goes on from there.....blah...blah....I was happy that I had a degree in Computer Science, Chemisty and Physics. Combining that with my magical backround came in handy Smile ... blah..blah...

I also spent my last 2 years in college working on a card counting system for blackjack and wrote an artificial intellegence program to play backgammon .... that was also fun....Russell Barnhart tipped me off to Ed Thorp's book and I wanted to make a better system. So, after 2 years and gradiation, I made my first trip to vegas...and the saga continues Smile
Long Island,

New York
silverking
View Profile
Inner circle
4586 Posts

Profile of silverking
It's a saga now?
card cheat
View Profile
Elite user
426 Posts

Profile of card cheat
Quote:
So, after 2 years and gradiation, I made my first trip to vegas...and the saga continues Smile


Saga? Wow, man. I have worked my fair share of card games and have never once been involved in a saga. Well, maybe one of these days...

And, by the way, graduation is spelled with a "u", and not an "i". Minor detail, I know. Spelling is nothing special when compared to sagas, counting systems, and "juice cards."

To answer the original poster's question without any self-aggrandinzing tales of outwitting Thorpe or superfluous name-dropping and, sorry, no sagas, I would say the following.

Dowser makes good points in his post, and (on another level) so do Stoneunhinged and Silverking (I would read between the lines there.) To add to these posts, it should be said that if the juice is ever obvious to anyone that doesn't already know it's on the deck, you have put it on too thick.

There's a way to do things, and there are ways not to.

CC
tommy
View Profile
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
15816 Posts

Profile of tommy
Artwo

Buy it and test it. Suck it and see, as we say in the trade.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Expertmagician
View Profile
Inner circle
2484 Posts

Profile of Expertmagician
Just to set the record straight...I never outwitted Thorp. I was just introduced to his book by a magician friend and decided to take his theories a step further using my college computers. Ed Thorp is still the master for discovering that the game could be beat !

Even though I started college as a math major, I dropped it as a major when I hit advanced calculus....I hated that Smile

As a matter of fact, I never met Thorp until Feb. 2008 in Las Vegas and that was a one shot deal. That was when I found out that he actually knew Russell Barnhart and worked with him when he thought the casinos were cheating him when playing blackjack. He wanted Russell to stand in the background while he counted cards and played blackjack to make sure the casinos were not cheating.

The funny thing was that even though I knew Russell very well and saw him almost every week at the weekly hang out in New York for card guys....he never told me that he worked with Thorp....I only found out when Ed Thorp mentioned his name in conversation about 7 months ago.

Small world isn't it Smile

PS: The only reason I mentioned the story was that I thought this group would appreciate the saga....But, I will stop now if there is no interest.
Long Island,

New York
iamslow
View Profile
Inner circle
Proffessional Slacker
1901 Posts

Profile of iamslow
Expert, How would the casino cheat while he counted?? Casino dosent need to cheat... if they suspected he was a counter, the floor would just tell the dealer to cut deeeeep.. sometimes only a few hands from a 6 deck shoe would be played before its shuffle time again...this alone will destroy a counter if he sticks around long enough...


j
"Everyone is tough till they get punched in the face" Mike Tyson
iamslow
View Profile
Inner circle
Proffessional Slacker
1901 Posts

Profile of iamslow
Speaking of counters, has anyone here heard of a man by the name of John Trummell?
"Everyone is tough till they get punched in the face" Mike Tyson
Mr. Z
View Profile
Special user
Las Vegas, NV
826 Posts

Profile of Mr. Z
Quote:
On 2008-09-28 02:47, iamslow wrote:
Expert, How would the casino cheat while he counted?? Casino dosent need to cheat... if they suspected he was a counter, the floor would just tell the dealer to cut deeeeep.. sometimes only a few hands from a 6 deck shoe would be played before its shuffle time again...this alone will destroy a counter if he sticks around long enough...


j


Actually, Thorp was cheated a number of times in his early playing days. This is pretty well-documented, and many magicians will recall that Thorp enlisted the aid of Mickey Macdougall to evaluate some of the clubs and dealers he was playing in. It's worth noting that while Scarne always attacked MacDougall's credibility, the man did work for the early Nevada Gaming Control Board. Interestingly there is no record of Scarne ever being employed by a casino in any capacity (he was of course, but this was back when the boys were running the joints).

Anyways, this was during the 50s and 60s when Nevada casinos still used mechanics to bust out winning players. Thorp discusses these experiences in many of his books. Seems like he ran into all the classic scams such as the peek and a 2, hi-lo pickup, etc...
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
iamslow
View Profile
Inner circle
Proffessional Slacker
1901 Posts

Profile of iamslow
Sorry guys, it shows how much I know about anything... I guess I can see how it would have happened in the old days... I just thought you guys were reffering to more current times(80's)
"Everyone is tough till they get punched in the face" Mike Tyson
AMcD
View Profile
Inner circle
stacking for food!
3114 Posts

Profile of AMcD
Quote:
On 2008-09-28 03:15, Mr. Z wrote:
Interestingly there is no record of Scarne ever being employed by a casino in any capacity (he was of course, but this was back when the boys were running the joints).


Well, some of his friends were disreputable. It doesn't help Smile.
Expertmagician
View Profile
Inner circle
2484 Posts

Profile of Expertmagician
Quote:
On 2008-09-28 02:47, iamslow wrote:
Expert, How would the casino cheat while he counted?? Casino dosent need to cheat... if they suspected he was a counter, the floor would just tell the dealer to cut deeeeep.. sometimes only a few hands from a 6 deck shoe would be played before its shuffle time again...this alone will destroy a counter if he sticks around long enough...


Iamslow....while you are correct today...don't forget, I an talking about 30 years ago before casinos knew about card counters...Ed Thorp invented the concept...so all the casinos knew was that they were loosing and did not know why...so, the casino may have decided to use other techniques to gain a house advantage Smile
Long Island,

New York
Expertmagician
View Profile
Inner circle
2484 Posts

Profile of Expertmagician
Side note:

Cheating was known to occur in vegas by casinos years ago....at least I was told some stories by Jimmy Grippo when I met him once about 20 years ago.

I am not name dropping, anyone can mean these guys when hanging out with the right people in vegas or other cities Smile

Nor does a single encounter with a famous person mean that I knew him....I just spent one evening session with Jimmy Grippo and some otrher magicians in Vegas many years ago....It was a memorable evening !
Long Island,

New York
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Juicy Tells (0 Likes)
 Go to page 1~2 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2020 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.14 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL