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Wanlu Inner circle Manila, Philippines 3058 Posts |
The Mack figures have interesting history
In Dan's new blog entry...the picture shows Mr Marshall with some of his creations including Windy Higgins which is a Mack not a Marshall Like McCathy is also a Mack not Marshall and Woody is also a Mack not a Marshall but interesting enough, their owners,Edgar Bergen and Johnny Raymond are listed in the Marshall catalog as Marshall figure owners. BUT Paul Stadelman is not in that list because Windy was carved in 1913...while Woody was made in 1919 and McCarthy in 1922. I was wondering why Mr Marshall will include Mr Bergen and The Raymonds (Schaibley) in his catalog and not Mr Stadelman. Could it be possible that it was Mr Marshall who carved both Wooody and Charlie when he was employed by Charlie Mack? Woody was made in 1918 and the back up head in 1919 while Goody in 1922 and Charlie in 1922 as well. Mr Marshall did not include Mr Stadelman in his catalog because Windy was without a doubt a Mack because he was made in 1913. Interesting!
"The Old Path"
www.angdatingdaan.org Wanlu's Affordable Puppets http://wanlu.net/ventpuppets.html Wanlu and his Puppets http://wanlu.net |
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marshalldoll Special user 554 Posts |
I have 7 Mack figures in my collection and all of them have the head stick attaching to the bottom board just as the picture I showed on my blog except for one which had been modified by Madame Pinxy. It was cut off. The Macks offered different controls both ring pulls and levers. Marshall too offered ring pulls and levers. I will stand by my statement that if the head stick does not go to the bottom it was cut and modified. I also own 2 walking Marshall figures one has the headstick to the bottom the other does not. Both original.
Dan http://www.ventriloquistcentral.com |
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Wanlu Inner circle Manila, Philippines 3058 Posts |
Dan,
Perhaps your Macks are the early Macks...maybe even older than Windy Higgins which was made in 1913. The one I have was made in 1919 as a back up head to a 1918 Mack figure. I don't think this was cut or modified. I have a question... Why will Mr Marshall place his card inside the head of a figure? Maybe for two reasons, either he made the figure or he repainted it...correct? Does anyone have any figure that was not made by Mr Marshall but repainted by him with his card inside the head? Would anyone know if the Mack made Charlie McCarthy was refurbished or repainted by Frank Marshall and would his card be inside the Mack McCarthy head?
"The Old Path"
www.angdatingdaan.org Wanlu's Affordable Puppets http://wanlu.net/ventpuppets.html Wanlu and his Puppets http://wanlu.net |
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marshalldoll Special user 554 Posts |
Hi Wanlu, you clearly can see that the head stick in the Mack figure from puppets and props is not original. You can see that a different color plastic wood is covering the spot of attachment for the more modern lever which was put into the shortened head stick. That is easily seen by anyone who looks at the picture. I know you want to disagree and you have the right but pictures just do not lie and neither do I. LOL
Dan http://www.ventriloquistcentral.com |
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Wanlu Inner circle Manila, Philippines 3058 Posts |
I think that's a hand wrap used to absorb sweat
http://www.puppetsandprops.com/Images/GoodspeedMack5.jpg One thing I can tell you Dan is that you know a lot of stuff concerning Macks and Marshalls...and that I respect. You are the expert Now riddle me this...if the original Mack in the Brose site was made with a long headstick touching the base, who shortened it? The owner? or the Macks themselves as requested by the owner? If the Macks cut it, won't it still be original? If Mr Schaibley's 1918 Mack had a long headstick touching the base, don't you think the back-up should be as long...and since it's not, I have a feeling even Woody has a short headstick. In any case, one thing is apparent, the Macks made figures with long headsticks touching the base but they also made shorter headsticks...just like the Macks made figures with ring pulls and they also made figures with levers. That is why I stand by my personal opinion...I don't think it's fair to conclude that ""If you find a Mack figure in which the head stick does not go to the bottom then it has been modified and is incorrect." The Macks easily could have made different styles of headsticks. AGAIN, THIS IS JUST ME DAN...I may be wrong of course but I'll say it again, it's just my personal opinion. Thanks Wanku
"The Old Path"
www.angdatingdaan.org Wanlu's Affordable Puppets http://wanlu.net/ventpuppets.html Wanlu and his Puppets http://wanlu.net |
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marshalldoll Special user 554 Posts |
Wanlu The Macks used the head stick going all the way to the bottom board. That is how THEY made the figures. The shortened length would have been done either by the owner of the figure or a later owner down the path of time. Macks did not make short head sticks. That design was not until much later in the passage of time. As I said I too own a Mack with a shortened head stick which was done by Madame Pinxy in the late 1930's. Is it still a Mack "YES" is it original "NO" and I know it was cut down because Macks had long head sticks. Even if you purchased just the head from the Macks it had the long head stick. Tnhese were made separately from the heads and then attached. By the way almost all the early mack figures had the ring pull design. It was the later ones that had a lever which is quite unique and I will do a blog about that and show it.
So there you have it and if you want to continue to think differently you can of course. Dan http://www.ventriloquistcentral.com |
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Wanlu Inner circle Manila, Philippines 3058 Posts |
I got your point Dan...
is it not possible that the Macks made figures with originally short headsticks, not touching the base? Maybe in the latter years before they sold the shop.. Maybe it was their style...make long headsticks and just let the owners cut them... or perhaps it was made that way for a reason...which right now escapes me. Thanks Wanlu
"The Old Path"
www.angdatingdaan.org Wanlu's Affordable Puppets http://wanlu.net/ventpuppets.html Wanlu and his Puppets http://wanlu.net |
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marshalldoll Special user 554 Posts |
Mack shop made the head stick to the bottom of the figure for two reasons. First it was the only way they knew how to do it. The ball and socket had not yet been invented so to speak. The attachement to the bottom gave the figures head a full 360 degree rotation with just a simple twist of the head stick. Very cool actually. Also the head stick being attached to the bottom also allowed the performer to carry the figure by means of the head stick. So again to answer your question the Macks only made a long head stick.
Dan http://www.ventriloquistcentral.com |
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Wanlu Inner circle Manila, Philippines 3058 Posts |
It does not make sense...
...that's the only way they knew how to do it? Like it needs an Einstein to figure out how to cut it? I respect what you think Dan...you have your reasons to believe in it, I beleieve that's 8 good reasons in your collection ...but I still think it's possible that the Macks made shorter headsticks. They made rolling eye winkers...walking figures...crier effect...two types of controls, ring and lever...but never knew how to cut a headstick short? Just does not make sense to me Wanlu
"The Old Path"
www.angdatingdaan.org Wanlu's Affordable Puppets http://wanlu.net/ventpuppets.html Wanlu and his Puppets http://wanlu.net |
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marshalldoll Special user 554 Posts |
Wanlu when you have another 10 years into collecting of antique figures then you will know. You have one antique head which you are basing your thoughts on and also the fact that your other figures have all been ball and socket. Hey I understand where you are thinking from but what information I have passed on is correct and I will have the last word on this no matter what you decide. Macks made long head sticks that attached to the bottom board period. Anything else was done later !! Sorry but that is just how it is!!
Dan http://www.ventriloquistcentral.com |
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ColinDymond Special user Gloucestershire, England 675 Posts |
I don't know about Mack figures but I know there are enough things in life that don't make sense but are true. I think Dan has the greater knowlege. If you can find anyone with as much knowledge as Dan who dissagrees with him then you may have a point other wise I'd bow to his wisdom.
Sent with respect to both of you. Back to Dan's book. You can now publish books with very small print runs. Actually they can print one at a time. Your book gets listed on Amazon, you decide how much to charge, we buy it, job done! Oh you just have to write it first. Here's a link to one of the publishers. http://www.lulu.com/uk/
Colin Dymond
www.aceofdiamonds.co.uk |
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marshalldoll Special user 554 Posts |
Colin thanks for the credit and the link. I have been tossing the book idea around and have even made an outline to write one so I guess I can say it is in the works. I certainly will let everyone know when and if it does happen.
Dan http://www.ventriloquistcentral.com |
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Wanlu Inner circle Manila, Philippines 3058 Posts |
I don't question Dan's knowledge...not at all!!! No doubt about it, Dan has greater knowledge...and I NEVER claimed I have greater knowledge. But this is not a matter of who has greater knowledge...we are after the truth and we can't get it directly from the horse's mouth so to speak because the Macks are long gone, so everyone is entitled to his own opinion and has the right to speculate. I repeat, I don't question Dan's knowledge!
But I'll point this out again...Dan, is it not possible that the Macks made shorter headsticks? YES OR NO? Just like they made two style of controls, lever and ring. The Schaibleys had 4 Mack figures including Goody (Anne's figure)... if the back up heads have short headsticks, most probably the original figure has the same style headstick, that's basically how a perfromer would order a back-up. No doubt anout it, the Macks made long headsticks touching the base...NO DOUBT ABOUT IT! But I sincerley don't thaink it's fair to say "If you find a Mack figure in which the head stick does not go to the bottom then it has been modified and is incorrect?" Why is it unfair to say that? Simply because nobody can take out the possibility that the Macks did make shorter headsticks...specially during the latter years of the Macks. Quote:
WITH ALL DUE RESPECT, no doubt about it...Dan has greater knowledge as a collector. But I think it's safe to say that I MAY have at least as much knowledge as a performer. I disagree with him based on my experience as a performer...NOT AS A COLLECTOR because I am not a collector. As a performer and dealer...my point is simple. The Macks could have made figures with shorter headsticks specially in their latter years as figure makers...in fact there are 3 figures at the Brose site with short headsticks including my Mack. If you were Charlie Mack, you get orders from pro vents using shorter headsticks, won't you inlcude that option in your catalog? The Macks made figures with criers, ring or lever controls, rolling eye winkers, walking figures...and CAN'T MAKE SHORTER HEADSTICKS? I don't understand why it is impossible... In any case, this is a forum...we can all agree to disagree. Dan disagrees with me...I disagree with Dan...Colin agrees with Dan. That's basically what makes a forum, a forum No need to find anyone who has greater knowledge just to disagree to agree... I SIMPLY don't think it's fair to conclude that "If you find a Mack figure in which the head stick does not go to the bottom then it has been modified and is incorrect." There could be a reason why some figures have long headstick touching the base...just like there is a reason why there are shorter headtsicks. As a performer, I'm pretty confident that the reason has something to do with how a performer manipulates his figure just like some performers like controlling the mouth with the thumb...and some like using the index finger.
"The Old Path"
www.angdatingdaan.org Wanlu's Affordable Puppets http://wanlu.net/ventpuppets.html Wanlu and his Puppets http://wanlu.net |
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marshalldoll Special user 554 Posts |
Wanlu again I reiterate short head sticks was not the way the Macks offered the figures even in their later years. If that would have been the case then the early Marshall figures would not have had the long head stick either but in fact they do. Yes the early Marshall figures also had the head stick to the bottom board. PLEASE wanlu understand that the idea of a short head stick was not yet developed. It like saying that in 1900 when the Ford Model A was made you could order it with fuel injection. It did not yet exist. Again I am not going to let you have the last word on this topic. I am correct plain and simple no matter how much you want it to be different. Sorry my friend!!
also the bottom of the neck was flat. The hole in the top of the Mack body was 1 1/2" in diameter so that it only allowed the head stick to pass through. Then the head rested quite nicely on the shoulder board. This is why most had the ring pulls because very little room for a lever to pass through. This made the need for the head stick to go to the bottom for the stabalization and the 360 degree rotation. As I said once you have handled a few more of these antiques you will see the reasoning for the way they were developed and why after some time the ball and socket evoloved. Ball and socket and short head stick appears in the 1930's not the teens or twenties. Dan |
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Wanlu Inner circle Manila, Philippines 3058 Posts |
If it's not too much to ask Dan...can you post more pictures of your Macks with long headtsicks touching the base please. Maybe we can find some answers there. Maybe at least 3 different figures with those long headsticks...
Do those figures with long headsticks all have ring type controls or some of them have lever type controls as well?...does the one M. Pinxy modified has levers or ring type as well? So far...the ones I have seen (in pictures) with short headsticks have lever controls. http://www.puppetsandprops.com/Images/GoodspeedMack5.jpg and the one picture so far with long headstick touching the base has ring control. http://ventriloquistcentral.com/wordpres......dy02.jpg I just love the Macks and Marshalls...too much history behind them
"The Old Path"
www.angdatingdaan.org Wanlu's Affordable Puppets http://wanlu.net/ventpuppets.html Wanlu and his Puppets http://wanlu.net |
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marshalldoll Special user 554 Posts |
Wanlu make sure you check out my blog tomorrow. I posted something you again will find most interesting.
also I already told you the one pictured on Brose's site is a modified figure. Lets call it MODERNIZED !! LOL Dan |
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Wanlu Inner circle Manila, Philippines 3058 Posts |
Dan,
Please dnt get mad at me...the topic is just so interesting that I have a lot of things happening in my mind...trying to imagine how the Macks made figures...and now I have the following speculation. Can't it be possible that the Macks had different types of figure bodies and consequently different types of headstciks and controls? If you want a figure with the long headtsick, then it goes with a ring pull. If you want to have the winker effect then it has to be with levers and shorter headstick. Every performer has a comforttable way of manipulating figures...some find it easier to control the mouth with the index finger rather than with the thumb...which makes it possible for some performers to order short or long headstick. My Mack head was made in 1919...and it has a lever for the mouth and another lever for the winker... so that means that by then, the Macks were already making figures with levers or ring pulls...and quite possibly (which was my point from the very start) that they were also making figures with short or long headsticks by then. Wanlu
"The Old Path"
www.angdatingdaan.org Wanlu's Affordable Puppets http://wanlu.net/ventpuppets.html Wanlu and his Puppets http://wanlu.net |
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marshalldoll Special user 554 Posts |
Wanlu what makes you think the levers on yours are original??
The macks only made one style of body. Sorry and by the way I am not mad, angry , upset or the like. I am just making sure you realize that the information I am imparting is CORRECT and not speculation which is what you are doing. You are speculating because of your your performance talent but at the time these early figures were being used it was just different. I too love the Macks and Marshalls and I think that is self evident. There is not a larger collection of these two figure makers owned in the world than mine. Yes I do have more of these two figure makers than the Vent Haven Museum. Dan http://www.ventriloquistcentral.com |
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Wanlu Inner circle Manila, Philippines 3058 Posts |
Quote:
On 2009-03-15 13:10, marshalldoll wrote: Dan what makes you think they are not? If they are not then I can only guess that Frank Marshall refurbished the head with a "modernized" headstick as you put it. Thus explaining the Marshall card in the head. Really got to go...I want to stay and chat some more but I just can't...catch you tomorrow Dan Wanlu
"The Old Path"
www.angdatingdaan.org Wanlu's Affordable Puppets http://wanlu.net/ventpuppets.html Wanlu and his Puppets http://wanlu.net |
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marshalldoll Special user 554 Posts |
Wanlu sleep well and kill them tomorrow on your performance. Can't wait to hear the results!!
Dan |
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