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Doug Higley 1942 - 2022 7152 Posts |
Higley's Giant Flea Pocket Zibit
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
I read an article on the train last night back from Hamburg. It was about the movement to re-introduce older breeds of cows here in Germany. According to the article...
97% of Germany's 12,000,000 cows belong to one of FOUR breeds. We are playing around with natural laws at our own risk. That is an unassailable fact. And that's just DOMESTICATED animals. |
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Tom Bartlett Special user Our southern border could use 763 Posts |
It would be wonderful if the romanticized stories about the mustangs and other wild horses were all true, but these stories are rare exceptions and most often pump full of touchy, feely, feel good BS to promote other hidden agendas.
I have been around good horses all my life. I have feed them, doctored them, trained them and cried over the loss of more than one of them, but this deal about the wild horse is taking thing way out side of reality. Very few of these wild horses are domesticated; the vast majorities are outlaws and after being adopted are euthanized and disposed of without any benefit to anyone, usually at the taxpayer’s expense. The most useful way to thin back the herds to a sustainable level would be to harvest a certain amount and sell the meat to the French, they love horse meat. You can all say what you will, but there is not one of you that have had more real experience with wild outlaw horses here on the Café than me.
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
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MickeyPainless Inner circle California 6065 Posts |
Well maybe me Tom! LOL I too have been on and around em my entire life (51 years) and have made my living exclusively with horses over the past 12 years!
Tom is right about the touchy feely BS! I'd have to say that in my experience less than 10% of the adopted mustangs end up as usable, trainable horses! I think those numbers might go up some if they were handled by the pros instead of Betty backyard owner but I know very few pros that even want to deal with em! There are just too many good domesticated horses to be had! The wild bands are beautiful and fun to watch but they have become a problem due to over population! Wild horses destroy grazing land quicker than anything so if you don't want to eat horse meat and you do enjoy free range beef.......... I'm sure Tom and I will be branded the bad guys but facts is facts and we both have the time in the saddle and broken bones to back it up! Mick |
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Tom Bartlett Special user Our southern border could use 763 Posts |
Mick,
Sorry I forgot about you! Mick you’re so right about pros not wasting their time with them, it's like trying to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear; it’s not going to happen. My dad always said it's a lot cheaper to feed a good horse, than a bad one and a lot smarter too. Tom
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
I always wonder if people who bemoan the loss of any single species would really want to deal with allosauruses (allosauri?!) on their daily commute.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Doug Higley 1942 - 2022 7152 Posts |
Bowing to the two experts of course (though I also have 'saddle time' and bad body parts and scars to prove it ) but I'm not an 'adopter' unless people are prepared to deal with them properly and understand the 'iffy' nature of the beasts.
Nevada has over 47 MILLION acres of free range (some of it actually good stuff) and only about 14,000 Mustangs. (BLM inflated figures). My choise LEAVE THEM THE F888 ALONE! There are large HEALTHY herds that are being or scheduled to be culled because the BLM has a QUOTA to reach. A number arbitrary when it was pulled out of a hat years ago. 33 thousand horses are currently penned. Reason? The cattle argument is fairly bogus considering the numbers involved and the vast lands in multiple states. Sure...cull with reasonable figures in hand and sell the meat. It's the upper echelon of the BLM that's in the pocket of the politicians and only a few of those criminals IF ANY give a crap anyway. Last time on this isssue here I had evidence that there is a strain of INDIGINOUS stock (DNA trace) and these horses are not just runnaway Cavalry or Spanish leftovers from hundreds of years ago...we are talking a NATIVE Species and this needs to be further investigated me thinks. Wacking 33,000 head seems a bit much to me much less adding thousnds more which they will be rounding up because they need to reach a political NUMBER. I'm not touchy feely about anything...except I guess when it comes to croaking Tigers and Horses for no reason. Leve 'em be is all I say. Jeff: Cows are just latge bugs that crap and fart and are good for food value period. Don't fret.
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MickeyPainless Inner circle California 6065 Posts |
Doug,
Weren't the saddles you sat atop those wall of death and flat track bikes? LOL I've mentioned this before in a horse topic on here but it bares repeating..... I think that the folks adopting need to be made MORE aware of the costs involved in keeping a horse! There's a whole lot more than just a few bales of hay every month! Hoof care, Vet bills, bi annual vaccinations, dental care etc. Then if you do want to make a rider out of Ol'Plug you'd better be prepared to send him off to a trainer for about 6 months (or more) and a GOOD trainer is gonna cost ya! A lot of people think they can get by with 30-60 days of training but in fact that's like being on a diet for 2 weeks! You'll most likely see some results but it ain't gonna last! I'm gonna have to do the math on how long it would take 14,000 range maggots, I mean mustangs to graze off 47 MILLION acres and what the recovery time would be. I used to know the formula but it has since slipped away with most of the other bizarre pieces of info I've had floating around my noggin over the years! |
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Tom Bartlett Special user Our southern border could use 763 Posts |
If you leave 14,000 wild horses unchecked for a five year period, you'll end up with more than 100,000 wild horses. That is why you can’t leave the alone.
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
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abc Inner circle South African in Taiwan 1081 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-10-20 23:38, Tom Bartlett wrote: Why? What do they do? I mean to get from 14000 to 100 000? |
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Doug Higley 1942 - 2022 7152 Posts |
Mickey...can't you just whisper to them?
Not unchecked. But the herds need to be culled scientifically not by some arbitray # that sounds good. If there are no narural preditors to take the weak or unhealthy then it has to be done for the vitaliity of the herd...it's the random enmasse grabbing of the healthy stock I'd object to.
Higley's Giant Flea Pocket Zibit
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
You do have to wonder if they are displacing other animals from the ecosystem. Where I live there are some wild horses, but not a lot. I've spoken to a few biologists about this and they unanimously would prefer to see the available grazing materials eaten by elk, moose, deer, bison, and all the other "naturally occurring" creatures. I'm undecided, but for unscientific reasons. Since I can see the other animals more often than I see wild horses, I'm more excited by the horses.
John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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Slartibartfast Loyal user Southern Illinois 230 Posts |
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On 2008-10-21 14:09, abc wrote: See, the mommy horse and the daddy horse love each other very much...
If you can pull it off in a biker bar without being violated by a corn dog, more power to you.
-- Gwyd, the Unusual "YOUR Signature...speaks volumns (sic) as to your lack of understanding." --T.V. |
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Doug Higley 1942 - 2022 7152 Posts |
John I appreciate that of course and it's almost a good idea to keep it 'natural'..where is the line drawn though? Natural could mean Rhino's and Camels which originated on the American continent...that's silly of course BUT what if remnants of those species still roamed the plains or mountains? Along with the Bears and Lions etc. The Horse originated on the American continent...it is a Native Species technically to a certain extent...there IS solid evidence that the original American STRAIN is still present in the wild herds. I wish I could find it, it's lost on my puter, but it is compelling that the horse is as much as an indiginous species as any Elk or Antelope. There IS room for all. Were not talking about Cane Toads or Euro roof rats.
The biologists you spoke to are apparently not aware of the Native Species studies of the horses. They should be. Here's a piece I just found...guive it a read!!! Interesting stuff John... The Surprising History of America's Wild Horses By Jay F. Kirkpatrick and Patricia M. Fazio, Natural History Magazine "Modern horses, zebras, and asses belong to the genus Equus, the only surviving genus in a once diverse family, the Equidae. Based on fossil records, the genus appears to have originated in North America about 4 million years ago and spread to Eurasia (presumably by crossing the Bering land bridge) 2 to 3 million years ago. Following that original emigration, there were additional westward migrations to Asia and return migrations back to North America, as well as several extinctions of Equus species in North America. The last prehistoric North American horses died out between 13,000 and 11,000 years ago, at the end of the Pleistocene, but by then Equus had spread to Asia, Europe, and Africa. Animals that on paleontological grounds could be recognized as subspecies of the modern horse originated in North America between 1 million and 2 million years ago. When Linnaeus coined the species name, E. caballus, however, he only had the domesticated animal in mind. Its closest wild ancestor may have been the tarpan, often classified as E. ferus; there is no evidence, though, that the tarpan was a different species. In any case the domesticated horse probably did not arise at a single place and time, but was bred from several wild varieties by Eurasian herders. In recent years, molecular biology has provided new tools for working out the relationships among species and subspecies of equids. For example, based on mutation rates for mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) Ann Forstén, of the Zoological Institute at the University of Helsinki, has estimated that E. caballus originated approximately 1.7 million years ago in North America. More to the point is her analysis of E. lambei, the Yukon horse, which was the most recent Equus species in North America prior to the horse's disappearance from the continent. Her examination of E. lambei mtDNA (preserved in the Alaskan permafrost) has revealed that the species is genetically equivalent to E. caballus. That conclusion has been further supported by Michael Hofreiter, of the Department of Evolutionary Genetics at the Max Planck Institute in Leipzig, Germany, who has found that the variation fell within that of modern horses. These recent findings have an unexpected implication. It is well known that domesticated horses were introduced into North America beginning with the Spanish conquest, and that escaped horses subsequently spread throughout the American Great Plains. Customarily, such wild horses that survive today are designated "feral" and regarded as intrusive, exotic animals, unlike the native horses that died out at the end of the Pleistocene. But as E. caballus, they are not so alien after all. The fact that horses were domesticated before they were reintroduced matters little from a biological viewpoint. Indeed, domestication altered them little, as we can see by how quickly horses revert to ancient behavioral patterns in the wild. Consider this parallel. To all intents and purposes, the Mongolian wild horse (E. przewalskii, or E. caballus przewalskii) disappeared from its habitat in Mongolia and northern China a hundred years ago. It survived only in zoos and reserves. That is not domestication in the classic sense, but it is captivity, with keepers providing food and veterinarians providing health care. Then surplus animals were released during the 1990s and now repopulate a portion of their native range in Mongolia and China. Are they a reintroduced native species or not? And how does their claim to endemism differ from that of E. caballus in North America, except for the length and degree of captivity? The wild horse in the United States is generally labeled non-native by most federal and state agencies dealing with wildlife management, whose legal mandate is usually to protect native wildlife and prevent non-native species from having ecologically harmful effects. But the two key elements for defining an animal as a native species are where it originated and whether or not it coevolved with its habitat. E. caballus can lay claim to doing both in North America. So a good argument can be made that it, too, should enjoy protection as a form of native wildlife." And John...for your Biologists... "Bighorn sheep and the American bison are considered “native” to North America. However, both species actually evolved in Asia and came into North America via the Bering Strait land bridge. The horse, Equus caballus, conversely, evolved exclusively in North America and crossed the Bering Strait land bridge into Siberia, traveling in the other direction! Equus caballus fully evolved on the North America continent before they supposedly became extinct about 8,000 to 10,000 years ago. So the (wild) horse, Equus caballus, is truly a native species to North America contrary to the myth that they are an exotic, non-native species." :)
Higley's Giant Flea Pocket Zibit
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
Interesting stuff, Doug. I don't hang with the biologists anymore, so I can't ask them, but I suspect that they would give an answer somewhat like the following (we had a similar discussion about the re-introduction of a snake that wasn't extirpated, but was in low numbers.)
Even if the horses were genetically identical to the horses that once lived here (which they are not) we don't have much evidence of their range or of their population densities. Moreover, we don't know much about the state of the ecosystems in which they were part of a long-term stability. In the horse's absence, much has changed in the ecosystem. Simply re-introducing the horses to an area would both disrupt (or destroy) the current ecosystem and it would most likely fail to recreate the old ecosystem. This leaves us with an ethical choice. Do we preserve the existing ecosystem or do we create a new one with unforeseeable consequences? I don't think that this one is a slam dunk either way. John
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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Doug Higley 1942 - 2022 7152 Posts |
The horses seem to have adapted well and need no altering of any system.
We are dealing with most likely the most amazing species other than human on earth. Not from a romantic point of view but simple performance angles. It runs with unbelieveable stamina...it jumps...it swims...it's relatively gigantic...it can travel at speed over rocks, sand, water, mud, asphault, down steep inclines, up steep inclines, it can defend itself, it has great power, it is relatively intelligent for other than a preditor (!!! We forget this is a prey animal in the scheme of things...a plant eater with the life force of a lion), it can be trained, it caries burdons and pulls extremely heavy weights and I could go on...from the romantic side, it is absolutely gorgeous, in flight and stillness, it can be corageous and carry men and equipt in to battle, it can be trained to ignore what it inherently fears, fire, preditors,confusing ground lines, it can show affection and cares for and fiercly defends it's young, it's speed is matched only by one other animal the Cheetah, which immediately falls short after a brief distance...negatives: It looks really dumb in a hat and can be stubborn as hell but that can be attributed to a sense of independence and urge for freedom from doing silly things. It can stand ALL kinds of climate and can perform admirebly in rain wind and snow...(Trigger at speed could turn on a dime like a cat.) Yes again I could go on! This is not just another intrusive annoying life form cluttering the landscape...it just isn't.
Higley's Giant Flea Pocket Zibit
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abc Inner circle South African in Taiwan 1081 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-10-21 17:03, Slartibartfast wrote: I wanted to count the amount of posts people would post completely ignoring my question but that was a very humorous response. So can I say.....and then? |
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Magnus Eisengrim Inner circle Sulla placed heads on 1053 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-10-21 23:13, abc wrote: ...they keep reproducing at a rate of 48% per year...
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats |
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abc Inner circle South African in Taiwan 1081 Posts |
I get it.
48.2% seems to be more accurate though. |
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MickeyPainless Inner circle California 6065 Posts |
Doug,
Horses don't understand the spoken work at whisper or shout! Hey man, that is a beautiful description of the equine! I'm pretty fortunate to get to work on these awesome beasts every day! |
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