I said I won't post anymore here because I don't want to help them with the hype BUT I cannot allow false statements.

Another Rhetorical question for you is if you know who I am... You think I would come in a forum and start an issue if it wasn't my job?

Just so you know, I am Nefesch's producer/manager/designer/consultant and more you can't imagine...

So, saying I am speaking for him right now is a fact, of course if you allow me to do that.

Why didn't you call it Signed Coin to Ice Cube With a Hint of Cold Breath?

I am sure Ellusionist wouldn't copy that.

Choose a common word like Frozen and you are almost begging others to use the same name as you.

If I made an effect where I made a piece of candy vanish, and called it "Candy", then the name would not be original at all. Thus, I can expect other people to name their effect something similar.

Bear in mind, a name like "Freakey" is pretty original, as the word "key" is added to create originality.

Just to test, try and search on google. First "Frozen", then "Freakey".

Of course deep down this has nothing to do with the name. It is because some people detest Ellusionist, and therefore see every opportunity to put them down.

I myself look very forward to this effect, and also the upcoming effects from Rich Ferguson. When are those coming by the way? Jason?

Tjernobyl

Well, David Blaine did a "Frozen" tv special, although he added "in time" to it.
But I think he copied Masuda's "Frozen in time" trick.

Don't look now, but Nathan Burton is being "Frozen in ice"
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/597511/las......_shaped/

He is being frozen inside a giant "M". Man, that is only one letter away from "N"
Couldn't they choose a letter farther away?

Wow, it seems that people, when they think of things in ice, or moving slow, or stopping, choose the word "Frozen". So disrespectful.
James
ps
Y'all need to chill, brrrrr that was cold.

Xiqual,
You forgot about Madona's Frozen.

Every product has a campaign. Which this is a result of many things such as the effect it self, the name of the effect, the artwork, the demo video and the dealer's ad. Everything there is very important in order the product to go well or not.

Think about it as music CD's. The artists and the companies trying to find different names for their new albums. Now I really wonder why they do that, maybe because its good to have different names. Just a thought.

I think someone needs to contact their lawyer to solve this issue before someone get's cold... or frozen.

Cheers

Yes. That's what artistic types do best.



Touche then. However, I would like a direct quote from the horse's mouth.

Of course, I'm probably going to stick by my stance that it's a molehill being made into a mountain. I can tall the difference between the two effects. And anyone who can't probably still hasn't figured out how to dress themselves.

Ultimately, I'm going to side with Tjernobyl and say that this is less an issue of artistic integrity and more an issue of politics.

While reading all the posts here and in the Ellusionist Forum regarding this issue my point of view has change from the perspective I am from, so let me tell you my thoughts about it:

First of all I think that all of us that know the bussiness side of magic will agree that is important to have a good name for an effect that will be marketed, now don't take me wrong here I am not saying that the name IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING when releassing an effect, obviously the most important thing is the effect it self, however it does have some matter of importance when namming an effect otherwise when releasing an effect it would be more than enough to take a radomly word from a dictionary, but of course that is not the way that an effect is named PROPERLY.

Now, I believe that the name “FROZEN” is a good way to name an effect that will envolve coins and ice, I mean if you think about it is kind of NATURAL or if you want to say it this way : PSYCHOLOGICAL acceptable to come up with that name when regarding to an effect that will mix ice as an element. Some how I believe that the person that named this effect wether it was Ellusionist or Adam Grace was just as CLEAVER as I was, cause if you think about it is a name that will call atention from the future costumers, but also is something they all will remember and one more time it is apropiate for the type of effect.

After saying that here is something that I would like to think out loud, my only concern was IF by the time this effect was named, the person that named it was aware that I had already an effect under SIMILAR conditions (diferrent method, and diferrent effect, but similar conditions) and that it was ALREADY NAMED the way he was trying to name it, now of course I have NO IDEA who named it, and I am NOT blaiming anybody or pointing anybody, but if try just to think about it openly as I DID, here are the chances:

a) The person that named This effect WAS ALREADY aware of my effect and also aware of its name, and anyway he decided to keep ussing that name no matter what. If that was the case then I would just wonder WHY he still used it, there might be several chances, one would be that this person is not creative enough to finish their job from the begining to the end, or had not the capability to come with something else, which one more time I can not judge or blaime, I mean everybody has their capabilities and limits, don't we?. An other reson might be that this peson came up with other names, but still decided to use that one cause as I already said IS A CLEAVER NAME, if that was the case I think that what this person should have done is atleast to contact me or my manager Titanas to see if we didn't mind about it, now of course even when we might have said “we mind” , he would have been in his entirely free to use it or not, I mean we can not COMMAND someone to do or not something, But at least It would have show his concern, respect and ethics to an other Profesional Magician, I mean after all THAT IS THE REASON WE ARE HERE, right? “MAGICIANS HELPPING MAGICIANS”, but here is an other point of view, Titanas, My self, and all our team are high ethical persons, and maybe that is why we expect the rest of the persons be at least that way as well, but due that WE ARE ALL DIFERENT, what for my self mght be UNETHICAL, it might be ETHICAL FOR others, and what for me MIGHT be NOT GOOD, it might be GOOD for others, so if that was the case my las though is that this person just was not AS ETHICAL AS WE TRY TO BE. Now again I want to point out here that all this is IF AND ONLY IF the person that named this effect named it aware that I have already a marketed effect ussing SIMILAR conditions and HAVING THE VERY SAME NAME.

b) The person that named This effect WAS NOT aware that I had already an effect named like that with SIMILAR conditions (here I have to recap again that I am not talking about the METHOD or the EFFECT it self, cause I clearly know that they are Diferent, I am just talking about the similarities like ussing coins, ice, and the name) and that it had the same name: FROZEN. If that was the case again I just think that Minds think similar, and probably the name that came to his mind, was according with the enviroment situation for the effect and the ellements it uses, and I can NOT BOTHER that someone thinks of an IDENTICAL name under very SIMILAR circustances, other wise I would be wondering my self why did I name my effect like that, and the answer is so easy: CAUSE IT MATCHES WITH THE EFFECT TYPE AND STYLE.

After have exposed this two point of views there are some things I would like to add: No matter if the person that named this effect was aware of my FROZEN effect or not, I think that after reading all this posts, that person or his team, can apreciate that we ARE wondering about this situation, and I believe that the least they could do AFTER notting that we felt it was unethical, would be to say something like: WE didn't MEAN IT. Cause I really do Believe that NOBODY here HAS ACTED PORPOSELY to hurt someone or something, I mean I would never expect any other profesional magician, or a Magic Company to MEAN to hurt a parter or college, I mean one more time the reason why we (magicians) are a comunity is to HELP EACH OTHER, isn't it?. But maybe here again it comes up the ETHICS issue, where if I were them, and I would find out that what I did UNPORPUSLY make someone feels NOT OK, I would at least say: SORRY, I didn't MEAN IT, but that one more time is ME, cause I always try to act as ETHICAL as possible, and again I understand that we are not IDENTICAL to guide our acts by the same rules. However I don't think any of us specically when you are a PROFESINAL MAGICIAN, wants to be the kind of persons that while walking on the street HIT SOMEONE ACCIDENTALLY, and aren't you gentil enough to turn back and say : sorry, I didn't MEAN IT??

I would also like to SAY that Vagelis Haralampous better known as Titanas is the ONLY person in charge of my contract, he IS my Manager, Producer and Consultant, and DUE that he is the OWNER of my contract he is TOTALLY ALLOWED to speak for me and in my name.

Appart from all what I have said so far, regarding the Air Breathing method, Titanas and I really expect it not to be the same that we release, cause that would go beyong the ethics, and I am sure that all profesionals magicians knows what I am talking about, Is not alright to use some one else material withouth the permision of the creator, And I really believe that neither Ellusionist or Adam Grace would use some one else creation without their permision, and here one more time I am NOT judging, cause the effect has not been released, all the other way arround I am saying that I DO believe that their profesionalism is good so they will not use the same method as we did on our FROZEN effect.

The last think I would like to say is that I really expect their effect be as succesfully as mine.

All the best

Nefesch

Seek and ye shall find it seems.

Nefesch, I appreciate you being a professional about this. I personally don't think this is that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things, but I can understand wanting a word from Adam or Brad just for the record that no offense was intended.

As long as we're on the topic, how many other people are going to pick up both Frozens? They're obviously different methods, so I'd like to take a look at them both. One may be better for certain situations than the other, and there's always the possibility of synergizing the two methods into a new handling.

What I think is hilarious is people acting like it really matters.
The name is only for magicians. It's not like we come up to people and say
Magician:
"And now, I will perform "Frozen. No, not Frozen by Nefesch, Frozen by Adam Grace."

Spectator:
"Oh, the one that turns water to ice?"

Magician:
"No, that is Freeze by Sean Fields, that is an effect out of a book, not a DVD
like this. This uses a coin."

Who cares really? I know you guys do, but in the end, does it really matter?
Does it advance the craft or art of magic to be so petty?

Hey Dude, you are not a henchman from Ellusionist are ya?! You are defending them so well. Could be their lawyer as well who knows...LOL

How does the old cliche go? "Careful with that joke, it's an antique."

Not kidding, huh!?

I really wish you were. But I've learned the hard way that the path to less stress when talking to magicians is to lower my expectations to the point where only a retarded, syphilitic caveman couldn't meet them. That way when a magician does something mature or at the very least not stupid it's a pleasant surprise.

Ah, the grand logic of cynicism.

Xiqual,
What is also hilarious is that you failed again to understand the 2 different markets.
One is the market of creator selling a product to magician's and then comes the other market which is the magician sells his act to spectators.
We are not talking about the second here... If you have read my last post to you you would have avoid writing another hilarious post.

Also, I am sure that the word hilarious sounded very rude from me as it sounded rude from you when you use it to describe a situation that you may not realize but chose to describe it as hilarious.

In my opinion, the name is of prime importance...as you say Titanas, the market you are selling to is the magician (NOT the spectator as per Xiqual's suggestion) A lot of magicians may not have heard of Adam Grace's Frozen, but are looking to buy Nefeschs' Frozen, because they heard it was good from a local friend. So what do they do, they GOOGLE the words "FROZEN, MAGIC" and lo and behold up pops another version of Frozen by Adam Grace. The purchaser of the effect has instantly noticed that there is a similar effect out there, NEFESCH has already LOST HIS CUSTOMER!!! (or at least potentially so) There may be no legal issue (unless Nefesch trademarked the word Frozen) here, but a definite ethical one... this cannot be taken lightly!!

Regards
Kam

As a creator myself the name I give an effect is a part of the marketing of the product.

If someone came out with an effect that was similar to The Relic and called it The Relic, well, to be honest I'd be a bit upset if they didn't contact me first.

I agree that certain words are very common words and not "trademarked" but there should be some communication with the creator of an effect that uses a name you want to use no matter how common the word is, before they use the same name.
Especially if the effect is similar in nature.

I believe common courtesy applies at the very least.

Here, here Roth!!

Is there a link to Nefesch's frozen?

I found it. It seems as though the effects are different. Sucks about the name though. Grace's looks great I cant tell what Nefesch's is from his demo. What happens for those with frozen. I don't remember frozen was it a popular effect.

Néfesch / Titanas,

I spoke with Dean at length regarding Adam Grace's Frozen. I'm sure he has contacted you with details by now.

To the community; in hindsight we could have done better research and that is regrettable. We are going to give credit and a link to Néfesch's Frozen effect on our product page and marketing material moving forward. We will do everything we can to allay people's confusion and help them make the best informed decision on their purchase.

Best wishes to all,

Jason