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CSMTREE Veteran user El Paso, Texas 318 Posts |
I have a few points to add:
1. The guy is working. 2. He seemed to be performing the effects well regardless (some do not). 3. His audience was having fun and getting fooled at the same time. 4. He had the good taste to pick great material. 5. Has no one here ever used someone else's patter before? I have. 6. We are our own worst enemy. Why do we put each other down so much? This is supposed to be a forum of helping and reaching out. I believe most are disgusted with the lack of maturity on this website from amateurs who are armchair magicians. Andrew is dead on, this guy is probably still cutting his chops and will eventually find his own style. Support him instead of running him down and give him some encouragement. He looks to be leaving a good impression about magic on his audiences, are you? My two cents.
"Freedom is the best Magic of all"
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jasons_mind Loyal user 258 Posts |
Aceofharts,
I understand that it was only a demo reel, but what we saw of that demo reel, with the exception of one revelation, was directly from MM1. So, I think it's safe to say where his show is coming from. Most importantly, they were clips that used Osterlind's material verbatim. Every true master mentalist I've heard discuss the topic has always said, be yourself! To me, being yourself consists of using your own language and script, and fitting some of your own jokes in. A comment was made earlier about using those classic lines that never fail to get a decent or good reaction and I have no problem with that, but again, you somehow have to make it your own. The issue here isn't questioning the ethics of using someone's material or patter, especially if those have been marketed. The question is, is it unethical to perform someone's material and patter for what appears to be an entire show? For me the answer is simple. Yes, it is unethical. It's also uncreative and if you continue along those lines, your limited abilities will show in time. Read Cassidy's thoughts on this very topic and he'll tell you... you suck. lol Seriously, he doesn't care for it. Jason. |
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Floyd Collins Inner circle Ohio 1633 Posts |
Jason,
No need to read Cassidy, sorry bud but I don't need too, others may but I don’t. I follow my own thoughts on this subject and follow my own creed, as a performer of many years I have my own that I am very happy with. Unethical, maybe yes for him to do it word for word effect for effect, yet unrealistic of you to think this is his whole show without seeing his whole show. As a stage performer I know there is more to his show than what was highlighted or it would not be much of a show. You don't get to that size of a house without doing more than a few good shows. What you and some of the other are losing sight of is that he is performing a stage show! Not a comedy club stand up act, not a TV sitcom, but a stage mentalist show. So he bills himself as a “Master Mentalist” so what! He is a master to his audience, to us maybe not but he is not performing for us, nor have I ever gone to see his show. If I did I would most likely be entertained by watching the reaction of the audience like I am at most magic shows I attend. Maybe not the effects or the patter but the entertainment value of his stage presents. He is being who he wants to be and that is called being a performer. Is he a copy cat, I don’t think so because no one can copy Richard 100%. I do agree he needs to become original at some point and time and maybe by now he has, how do we really know. Incidentally quoting Bob Cassidy thoughts on this subject is not very original as well. Floyd
No one said it would be easy, or did they?
Check out my all new book "Chicken Scratches" visit my lulu store for more information. http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/thecenterstage http://www.collinscomedymagic.com |
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A.G. Special user Vancouver- Canada 960 Posts |
Not trying to stir up trouble, just stimulate a discussion.
As Mentalists, we are really actors,no? Actors on stage reciting a script, putting on a show/play, no? To repeat someone elses script,show, play, word for word is unethical? Even when The creator /re-creator releases it in its entirety as in a show format? I think Shakespere and a few others should be really ****ed then. We all stand on the shoulders of Giants that inculdes Osterlind, Banachek and every other living mentalist, except for Max Maven as we are not sure if he is an immortal. Stop trying to find the best solution for this ...find better problems. All The best Always, Andrew Gerard
Well then...
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Floyd Collins Inner circle Ohio 1633 Posts |
A.G
You are correct, it would not be unethical in this content. I stand corrected, looking at it from that point of view. Floyd
No one said it would be easy, or did they?
Check out my all new book "Chicken Scratches" visit my lulu store for more information. http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/thecenterstage http://www.collinscomedymagic.com |
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jasons_mind Loyal user 258 Posts |
I'll chime in one last time.
With regard to his "master" status: I don't mind that he bills himself as such, that's how you fill seats. Regarding Cassidy's work: His book Artful Mentalism is one of the classic texts that I feel all mentalists should read. The material in that book is top notch and his essays are thought provoking. If a person feels they don't need to read it, that's fine, but they are missing out on some important information. I agree that we are actors and a full stage show is basically an interactive play. However, how would it sound if we were to bill ourselves as "Mister Mindreader" presents the material of Richard Osterlind". Now, doesn't sound that great does it? That's why it's important to be ourselves and create our own presentations. When people are going to see a work of Shakespeare, they know exactly what they are getting into - a modern rendition of a classic play. However, as mentalists, an assumption of the audience is that they are seeing and taking part of a unique performance. We wouldn't be very unique if we were all doing identical things. Those are just my thoughts on the topic. I don't post these things to bash the performer, but to discuss the pros and cons of the topic. Jason. |
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sbays Inner circle Burbank, CA 1065 Posts |
"mimic the greats of your time and then one day people may mimic you"-
--------------------------------------------- I have never heard of a very successful cover band, have you? "We all stand on the shoulders of Giants that inculdes Osterlind, Banachek and every other living mentalist, except for Max Maven as we are not sure if he is an immortal." ----------------------------- Absolutely! To me this really wasn't an issue of him using Osterlind's routines, or even copying his patter word for word. To me it was him actually trying to BE Osterlind. Trying to mimic his gestures, movement, persona etc. Hey, its up to him right? He can do what he likes. But he also risks public criticism by his peers, as we all do. This isn't about how entertained his audience was, except to him of course. So end the end, and really the point of this whole thread, if your going to use other peoples word for word routines, then at least try to do them as yourself, and not someone else. Would it be ok for me to go and copy your business cards exactly? Your website exactly? Your promo material exactly? Your branding exactly? Of course, a lot of that is copyright protected, so removing that equation, would it be OK to do that? I don't think so.
"Opportunity may only knock once, but temptation leans on the doorbell."
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gabelson Inner circle conscientious observer 2137 Posts |
Quote:
On 2008-11-08 12:13, A.G. wrote: Point taken, Andrew. I, as well, believe we stand on the shoulders of giants. But it's a slippery slope. While a play is written specifically to be performed and brought to life by actors, mentalism is a field of study, to be learned and subsequently interpreted by the individual. As I mentioned earlier, I fully agree that it is fine to learn (and even recreate verbatim) from a DVD such as Osterlind's while on the path to finding one's voice, persona and style. But eventually, in order to stand out from the pack, one must be original. Something you, Andrew, have done in style. If you watch Richard Pryor's sets from the old Ed Sullivan show, he's a straight, buttoned-up comic, doing fairly generic material. It was early on in his development; he was still learning. By the time he did "Live On the Sunset Strip", he had developed into an original we have not seen the likes of since. |
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
I don't criticize bands for buying music and performing standards and popular songs. As long as the audience enjoys the performance and the performance rights have been paid for, what can anyone say against them? Not every band is the Beatles, and performance material is sold for a reason.
Now the guy in question, he is performing commercially available material. His audience seems to be having fun, and by all accounts, he seems to be performing well. So what is the issue? No this is not what I do, but I am not him. There are two other things I’d like to bring up; both may upset some people here: Most every time a new DVD or book comes out with strong material, there are posts all over here, and other places about how to purchase the product, and that the material is being added to the act. The second thing is: That guy in the video, he is performing for an audience, a live audience, and not sitting at home posting on a magic forum. Tony |
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Christopher Taylor V.I.P. British Columbia Canada 2314 Posts |
I agree with Gerard here. Those of us that "release" a complete routine, expect that people will buy it and use it, "as is". The fact that a customer may take the easy route and perform the effect right out of the box is not worthy of criticism in my book. Unless the guy is using material that has not been formally released; then it is theft of intellectual property.
Christopher |
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gabelson Inner circle conscientious observer 2137 Posts |
Tony, I don't know if you were addressing me, as well, but I certainly don't mean to criticize the gentleman. Lord knows, in all my years on the road, I did plenty of stock lines. Plenty of standards. They always served me well. But at a certain point in my career, I knew it was always going to be the road for me, as I never really found my "hook". So I shifted gears. Ironically, I found my voice, my talent, was writing for others in THEIR voice (Letterman, Maher, etc.), and only then did I achieve the level of success I had dreamed about. Of course, mine is a different field, but not totally unrelated.
This mentalist is making a living, which we must do by any means necessary. He is doing commercially available material, as you said, so for that hour on the stage, it is his to perform. I guess what I'm trying to say (poorly) is that there are two different issues here: Making a living... and making it. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Though I'm not a fulltime pro performer, I've performed for a few years now...and I even get paid for it too...
I think everyone has a breaking point, after performing stuff even without much scripting and character - for instance I can remember performing OOTW pretty much as a mime when I first started. I soon discovered my own personal breaking point - where I thought "enough's enough Iain..come on now...let's make this more 'you'" Maybe he's hit his own breaking point by now? As I said earlier - he got applause, and wows...good on him...
I've asked to be banned
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
Gabe
No, I was making a general sweeping post, posting my opinion and observations. There are many types and levels of performers. Going back to music, many local and regional bands can do very well with commercially available material. If they want to proceed to a different market (level if you will) they either write their own material or material is written for them. What I was getting at is to sit here and criticize someone we don’t know who is out there working and using commercially available material, seems wrong, especially when many here do the same thing. But, as you are saying, using the performance clip as a example of where you may have been at one point and where you are heading to now, and the steps you took, that is a different issue. Tony |
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Erdnase27 Inner circle 2505 Posts |
Hahaha he copied every line, 100% from Osterlind
brilliant even the "Give xx a big random applausse"" on same tonal voice. He is my new hero. |
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robwar0100 Inner circle Buy me some newspapers.Purchase for me 1 Gazette and 1747 Posts |
I've been following this thread intermittently. When I began I performing mentalism a few years ago (I have been performing magic since the 1970s), I leaned primarily on two people: Max Maven and Richard Osterlind. When performing in a regular setting, I also leaned on the presentations of my two favorite mentalists. When performing in a church setting, then I conjured up my own presentations and storylines.
As I performed mentalism more and more, I learned to adapt my presentation to my audience, and when performing for a corporate client, I incorporated the organization's message into my performances. However, for the most part, I still perform the materials of others. I developed a version of Max Maven's Mockingbird. I thought it was great. When I performed it in front of Dan Harlan, he explained to me what makes effects mere copies (of which mine was) and what makes them unique. He suggested a different presentation, which I am in the midst of finalizing. Without the opportunity to interact with professionals (I have had the privilege of interviewing some top performers in my role with The Linking Ring magazine), I would probably still be a copycat performer -- and with some effects, I still am. All of us have different personalities and performing styles. When we see a presentation that falls within our comfort zone, it is probably rather easy just to adopt that presentation. If it does not, then we are forced to explore our own. I am grateful others have shared their creations, which has given me a start. Perhaps one day I will be creating my own effects, but I am not there yet. For you creative ones, and you know who you are, let me offer a big thank you from the bottom of my heart. Bobby
"My definition of chance is my hands on the wheel," Greg Long.
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Richard Osterlind V.I.P. 2213 Posts |
I have read this thread and have to thank many people here for saying such kind things about me and my material. That really is very generous of you.
I have also seen the video and the fellow does the material quite nicely. I know when I first started out; I was a Kreskin freak and probably used more of his mannerisms and lines than was really warranted. But that is how one learns and how one develops their own personality. I am always changing myself and my act. This person probably does the material more like the Mind Mysteries video than I now do! But look, if you buy something, you have the right to use it. It is gratifying to me to see how many mentalists use all the effects I have offered over the years and it is only natural to want to say the same things if you see them work. After awhile, however, your own true self starts to creep in and, before you know it, you have a new show! So let me repeat a formula I have written about in the past and think is a good way to develop your own style. Take some effect you like and learn it exactly the way you have seen it performed. Make sure you understand everything about it that makes it work. Show the material around to make sure you get a good reaction … then put it away and forget about it. Wait about a month and drag it back out. Now, pretend you invented it! Try your hardest to imagine that you dreamt it up and everything about it - the method and effect – is totally your own. Then start playing around with it and try to see how you can improve it. Analyze what you like and don’t like and fix it so that it is just what you want and you are totally comfortable with every aspect of it. Put in lines that represent how you normally talk and use humor that you really use in real life. Then go out and start doing it again. If you follow the above advice, what you will probably end up with will be so different that it won’t even resemble what you started with. When your whole act becomes YOU, then you will get a feeling of accomplishment that you will never get just copying someone else. I will repeat one last piece of advice I gave here a short while ago. “You are a unique person and totally different than any of the other billions of people alive today. Why would you want to offer the world a copy of someone else?” Richard |
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michaelmagicart Loyal user 254 Posts |
Extremely well stated Richard, my hat is off to you sir!
I doubt seriously if you could find one single successful performer who could say they were never inspired by another performer, or mimicked or copied them in one way or another, whether it be a look, a pause, a gesture, a routine, patter, dress, etc., and the list could go on and on. It is a natural learning process. I don't know of a single person who taught them-self how speak. If so, it would be in a language no one else knows but them. We learn by mimicking, in all things we do. It is all part of developing and choosing our path in life. It is in this way that we eventually develop our personalities, and as performers our routines. I can see why you are so successful, as you sincerely want to help other performers, and your kind and generous remarks display that. Again, I say in all sincerity, "my hat is off to you". |
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gabelson Inner circle conscientious observer 2137 Posts |
Richard, we're so lucky to have you as a mentor, and especially here as a member of the Café community. You're always insightful, wise beyond measure and encouraging. Your advice reminded me very much of something Richard Pryor once said:
"Your friends all tell you you're a funny guy, so you go on stage, and do the same things you used to do to make your friends laugh at. But it doesn't work, and you bomb! So you realize, you've gotto get an act; get material. Then you pick up things from all the other comics, watching them, studying them, learning all the little things, the little tricks, how to be consistent, control the crowd and always get laughs. Finally, you grow enough and become confident enough that you come full-circle-- and can kill an audience by going back to doing the same things you used to do to make your friends laugh!" |
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robwar0100 Inner circle Buy me some newspapers.Purchase for me 1 Gazette and 1747 Posts |
Richard,
I want to thank you for the advice you have given over the years, especially your "Unlecture" in Cincinnati. Any plans to do any more of that? Best wishes, BObby
"My definition of chance is my hands on the wheel," Greg Long.
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sbays Inner circle Burbank, CA 1065 Posts |
From the man himself! As gracious as ever. Nuff said!
"Opportunity may only knock once, but temptation leans on the doorbell."
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