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Harry Lorayne 1926 - 2023 New York City 8558 Posts |
If you're thinking that some of my remarks in my last post make little sense, that's because the posts I'm referring to have been deleted. Although I'd prefer that they remained where they were, it doesn't bother me either way. Just wanted you all to know that I haven't gone senile yet (well, maybe a little bit!).
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]
http://www.harrylorayne.com http://www.harryloraynemagic.com |
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Adrian Fern New user All over the world 33 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-09-07 12:11, duanebarry wrote: - Later correctly credited to Al Koran by Harry Lorayne (1962) after which Koran's trick became popular all over the world. |
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Harry Lorayne 1926 - 2023 New York City 8558 Posts |
That's been my point all along. Nobody was doing that effect up until the time I wrote it up, taught it, presented it, published it.
And I was traveling all over the world, meeting magicians all over the world, fooling magicians all over the world with it. After publication in Close-Up Card Magic, people all over the world started to do the thing - UP TO THIS DAY. (See this, and other current threads.) I started the craze - just as I'm told I did for rubber-band tricks with my effect Snap! and for sandwich effects with my effect One-Eyed Jack Sandwich. No-one was doing the effects until after my publication of them decades ago - but, you know, I don't know if I want to take the credit OR THE BLAME!!! HL
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]
http://www.harrylorayne.com http://www.harryloraynemagic.com |
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Thomas Henry Inner circle Minnesota 1394 Posts |
Hi all,
Well, I'll confess this has me discombobulated. I pulled out my copy of Harry Lorayne's _Close-Up Card Magic_ to refresh my memory. On p. 199, the description of the presentation begins with "Al Koran of England speaking..." and follows with Koran's presentation of the Lazy Man theme, apparently in Koran's own words if the author can be believed. This is followed on p. 200 with Lorayne's comment, "The above is exactly how Al Koran fooled me." The wording sure suggests to me that he (Lorayne) was trying to accurately record what he had witnessed. But the previous postings here suggest that Koran didn't actually employ the Lazy Man theme at all, devolving to a boring presentation. I don't know what to think. Either the book is right, or the postings here are right. But I just can't see how both can be correct at the same time. The fact Koran had published his Lazy Man presentation much earlier is irrelevent to this dichotomy. After too long an absence, I also pulled out _Scarne on Card Tricks_ and checked out Jack Miller's "Traveling Card," pp. 135, 136. I know I played with it some forty years ago, but had forgotten just how close it is to Koran's presentation. (Koran credited Miller in Lorayne's book, p. 200). Anyway, it's all a mystery to me how the book and the postings here can both be correct, yet both written by the same person. What am I missing? Thomas Henry |
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BarryFernelius Inner circle Still learning, even though I've made 2537 Posts |
With respect to The Lazy Man's Card Trick, I try to keep in mind that Harry's 86 years old, and we're talking about events that happened about half a century ago. Let's consider the following scenarios:
1. Al Koran called the trick a lazy man's card trick, and that's exactly how he presented it. The description in The Close-up Card Magic is essentially correct. Harry loved the trick, and he put it in his book. Harry made the trick his own, and his later description of the genesis of the effect in The Classic Collection is essentially incorrect. 2. Al Koran called the trick a lazy man's card trick, and that's exactly how he presented it when performing for real people. The night that he showed Harry the trick, he just described the bare bones of the effect. That night, he didn't present the trick using the 'lazy man' hook. He described his presentation to Harry, and Harry imagined what it would have been like. When Harry wrote it up for the book, like any good writer, he imagined what it would be like to have Al Koran describe the trick to Harry's readers. Due to his fondness for the trick, Harry came to believe that he came up with the presentation for it. 3. Al Koran called the trick a lazy man's card trick when talking to magicians, but most of the time when he performed it he had some other presentation. Harry liked the 'lazy man' hook so much that he couldn't resist it. When Harry performed the trick, he always played up the 'lazy man' aspect. When he described the effect in Close-up Card Magic, he credited everything about the trick, including his own presentation for it, to Al Koran. After all, when Close-up Card Magic was written, Al Koran's word carried more weight with magicians. When Harry later re-wrote the trick for The Classic Collection, he set the record straight. Which scenario is The Truth? One of the above? Some combination of them? Some completely different scenario that I haven't imagined? I don't know for certain, and I don't have any way to find out. Biographical note: My father died 47 years ago in October of 1965. I was eight (in third grade), my brother was five (in kindergarten), and my sister was 15 (a sophomore in high school). I have vivid memories of that entire week, from the time that I first heard Dad had died until after he had been buried. Recently, I wrote up my account of that eventful week. I asked my brother and sister to do the same. We agreed on our accounts of some events, but there were so many contradicting memories in the three descriptions of that fateful week that it made all of us laugh out loud. Which sibling's story is The Truth? My account? My brother's account? My sister's account? All of the above? None of the above? I don't know for certain, and I don't have any way to find out.
"To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and not quite enough time."
-Leonard Bernstein |
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Harry Lorayne 1926 - 2023 New York City 8558 Posts |
Fortunately, so far, I know exactly what occurred when Al Koran did that effect for me. I don't know how often I have to say it, but - AL KORAN NEVER, EVER, SAID IT, OR PRESENTED IT, TO ME WITH THE "LAZY MAN" IDEA. He may have done so for others - although, as I've said here a number of times - NOBODY EVER, EVER, SAID THAT TO ME over about four or more decades. He simply did the effect - no particular presentation at all. That's the fact - which I know/remember, etc., quite clearly. I'm afraid you have to speak for yourself, Barry. (My father died over 70 years ago - and I know all the facts, those that were told to a teen-age boy, EXACTLY.)
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]
http://www.harrylorayne.com http://www.harryloraynemagic.com |
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duanebarry Special user 883 Posts |
Ignoring the clear, pre-existing published history of Koran's trick and presentation for the moment...
Why would Harry Lorayne create an original "lazy man" presentation himself and then generously credit it to Al Koran in the book? That doesn't really match up with the personality Harry has displayed for the last 50 years. |
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duanebarry Special user 883 Posts |
I don't think it would be good form to make up a presentation and credit it to someone else, particularly not to someone famous. It might be below their standards.
Let's say I make up my own presentation for a 4 Ace trick and publish it, framing it as "David Copperfield speaking," with the presentational patter apparently dictated straight from Copperfield's mouth. Or even as "Harry Lorayne speaking". That would be rude, no? Heck, Harry has taken offense at people naming him on YouTube when performing Harry's tricks poorly. If somebody took one of Harry's tricks, put their own presentation on it and published it ascribing the presentation to Harry, he would not likely consider that a kindness. It just doesn't make any sense, from any angle, that Harry would make up his own presentation and ascribe it to Al Koran in print. That explanation just doesn't hold up. |
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BarryFernelius Inner circle Still learning, even though I've made 2537 Posts |
I can say for certain that the description in Close-up Card Magic tells a different story than the description in The Classic Collection. I offered a few speculative scenarios. I do NOT know for certain why the two accounts differ.
"To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and not quite enough time."
-Leonard Bernstein |
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BarryFernelius Inner circle Still learning, even though I've made 2537 Posts |
For all I know, Harry's memory is 100% correct. Based on my own experiences, it's my opinion that his memory isn't perfect. I'll go even further and suggest that anyone over the age of fifty saying that he has perfect recollection of what happened fifty years ago is almost certainly not telling the truth.
Nonetheless, I speak only for myself. I don't presume to speak for Harry Lorayne. He's perfectly capable of speaking for himself. Finally, I have no interest in answering your question. The subtext of my first post in this thread might be summarized as follows: Nobody REALLY knows, and nobody ought to care. In the great scheme of things, it's just not that important. That's my last word on the matter. If you want to rattle on for a few more pages, be my guest.
"To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and not quite enough time."
-Leonard Bernstein |
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Dougini Inner circle The Beautiful State Of Maine 7130 Posts |
Quote:
On 2012-10-15 16:33, BarryFernelius wrote: Bingo! I love this trick! I am really thankful Harry printed it. I am fascinated by all the things Harry reveals about the greats of the past! I thank God he is still with us. I lost my Dad when he was Harry's age. May Harry live many more years, and continue to provide us with his knowledge! No need to .piss the man off! Why do that? Enjoy his magic! Who cares about such details? I take Harry at his word! I do not question him! I am not qualified to do that! Who ARE we, anyway, to question a man like Harry Lorayne about his integrity? I know you guys mean well. However, do you realize who we have here? Any idea? Let me clue ya: One of his autographed books could fetch a pretty penny RIGHT NOW! In ten years or more, when you see how much it's worth, you'll realize who we had here in our little forum! I cannot imagine insulting one of the greatest in magic we have ever had here! It saddens me so much, I just hang my head... I plan on getting that Collection eventually. I hope he would be so kind as to sign it for me! Doug |
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Mr. Mystoffelees Inner circle I haven't changed anyone's opinion in 3623 Posts |
Well said, Doug- gratzi!
Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
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WalterPlinge Veteran user 357 Posts |
I just found "Lazy Man's Card Trick" as "It's in Your Hands" in Bob Longe's "Easy Card Tricks."
He mentions that Harry Lorayne suggested the procedure to follow when revealing the card. Interestingly enough, Bob Longe changed the method just a bit, because he felt the original version could give the trick away. |
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Count Lustig Elite user 456 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-04-06 17:10, WalterPlinge wrote: More to the point, does he mention Al Koran? |
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Count Lustig Elite user 456 Posts |
[quote]On 2012-10-28 17:56, Dougini wrote:
Quote:
Who cares about such details? People who care about magic history and proper crediting. |
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WalterPlinge Veteran user 357 Posts |
Quote:
On 2013-04-07 21:37, Count Lustig wrote: No, Count Lustig, he doesn't mention Al Koran at all. |
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MikeBeaudet Loyal user Becancour 228 Posts |
How can we question Harry's memory when this guy has wrote a lot of books about memory ???
Do your best and forget the rest
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MikeBeaudet Loyal user Becancour 228 Posts |
If a come back to the trick, I would like to ask an heretic question ? I know that the trick is "The lazy ..." meaning that the magician never touch the deck. But, for the people I perform (engineers, cartesian people, very skepticals, want to see everything) if I want to make an effect they should be sure that the deck is normal and well shuffled. So, do you think it's a good idea if a show the deck (spread the card but keep the bottom stack hidden) and make a false shuffle BEFORE putting the deck on the table ?
Do your best and forget the rest
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Hideo Kato Inner circle Tokyo 5649 Posts |
At least, false shuffling keeping bottom 13 cards is included in Mr.Lorayne's original description.
Hideo Kato |
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Harry Lorayne 1926 - 2023 New York City 8558 Posts |
Except that I never set 13 cards - not necessary.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]
http://www.harrylorayne.com http://www.harryloraynemagic.com |
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